Latter Day Apostasy?

[Anonymous]

I have heard it discussed here that the church is in a latter day apostasy and that it had possibly been foreseen. I find this pretty interesting. I was wondering if anyone has scriptures, or teaching predicting this apostasy. Seems like it could be an interesting discussion topic.

[Anonymous]

It is applicable here if it is focused on aspects of the culture and doctrine that might fit and how to deal with them in productive ways. That’s precisely what this site is meant to do. If not handled that way, it will be nothing more than a bitch session, and we don’t do posts that are only that kind of thread.

That also is a very loaded term, and, just like discussions about charges of being a cult, we have to be very careful how we throw it around at a site like this.

The answer from pretty much everyone will be, “Yes, to some degree, of course. As a mortal institution, it’s a given.” (with the degree ranging from cwald’s perspective to Shawn’s) My scriptural addition would be Jacob 5, which I believe says there will be elements of apostasy that need to be pruned right up until the end. However, I won’t use the phrase “the Church is in apostasy”, given what that is interpreted to mean by most members. I don’t believe it, interpreted that way.

Frankly, we do individual threads about individual examples quite well – and I’d much rather stick to that. Again, it’s what we do.

[Anonymous]

Pretty much every schismatic Mormon group claims the church is in apostasy, it’s just a question of when and how.

Most of the scriptures seem to deal with the church in general, not just our lot, and it’s hard to separate out references to the old apostasy to our own.

[Anonymous]

Predictions and warnings of a great “apostasy” go all the way back to the beginning of Christendom. Jesus and Paul talked about it. But really, I am pretty convinced they believed they were talking about their own time, not some distant future event.

Yes. I believe the LDS Church is experiencing the effects of a broader cultural shift in the form of many people reevaluating their relationship with their religion. This is true for all religions, but obviously we care more to focus on our own. Based on our short historical track record, I predict our church will adapt and change. We’ve made major and totally unexpected changes in the past.

The LDS Church will change much slower than progressive folks want. It will change much faster than conservative folks want. It WILL change though. I can’t say how or exactly when.

[Anonymous]

I find it interesting that the fundamentalists of JS’s day wanted to get back to a more basic pre-polygamy/masonry Mormonism like during the Kirtland period, While the best known fundamentalists in our day want to go back to the polygamy as practiced under BY in the early Utah period.

I look at both of these periods and would run screaming for the hills. I don’t know that the early days of the Christian church under Paul, Peter, and the other “Apostolic Fathers” would be any better.

So, to bring it back to the OP. I do not believe that the church is in apostasy any more (or particularly any less) than it always has been. If speculative pronouncements morphing into “gospel truth” are examples of apostasy – then I would estimate that the human race has held a fairly steady mix of inspired teaching and made up junk.

Put another way, I believe that the degree of separation between us and the divine and our ability to tap into that has remained fairly constant throughout time.

On the other hand, if our respect for life and the diversity of opinion has increased to the point where genocides, inquisitions, Martyr-bombings, and blood atonement are almost universally condemned, this could be interpreted as a general increase in “enlightenment.”

As challenging as the modern church may be sometimes, I can think of no better time than the present.

So what do you think? Glass half full or half empty?

[Anonymous]

I don’t think the quality of “apostasy” (if we must use that loaded word) is any different. The quantity has been on a dramatic rise in the past decade or so. I would site the recent and famous Elder Jensen comment about this being as dramatic as the Kirtland-era, post banking scandal / real estate collapse time.

http://www.abc4.com/content/news/top_stories/story/Number-of-faithful-Mormons-rapidly-declining/rvih3gOKxEm5om9IYJYnRA.cspx

[Anonymous]

Brian Johnston wrote:

I don’t think the quality of “apostasy” (if we must use that loaded word) is any different. The quantity has been on a dramatic rise in the past decade or so. I would site the recent and famous Elder Jensen comment about this being as dramatic as the Kirtland-era, post banking scandal / real estate collapse time.

http://www.abc4.com/content/news/top_st … JYnRA.cspx

Oooohhh, I was responding to the OP as though it was referencing apostasy of the church and not apostasy from the church. 😳

As I understand it, the comment Brian linked to is the significant indicator of apostasy from the church. Other sources would understandably wish to downplay any exodus and have been much more circumspect in their pronouncements. I don’t believe these numbers are released to the public so it would be hard to get a clear picture.

[Anonymous]

My initial post was thinking of the church being in apostasy….though I do like the angle of how much apostasy “from the church” is going on. Too soon to tell but I hope to hear follow up stories from the Reuters article….with the Mormon Moment passed I am guessing we may not hear and things will go back to hush hush….

One other angle…another thought came to me as I thought about this…What if Joseph Smith was yet another reformer? Like the others we recognize, maybe Joseph just brought us back another slice and we as church members assumed it was the whole pie finally? To me this seems more likely than most scenarios. I can’t buy the idea that everything he did came from God…not even every practice he instituted. I can go with he was inspired and also had a bit of a flare for the dramatic and also had a “colorful” nature and like symbols to assist him so he incorporated a lot of symbolism in his teachings….and maybe we got mixed up about what was doctrine and what wasn’t? Heck…we don’t even know what he looked like so a good chance we don’t have the real take on what he taught and truly believed…

Reminds me of the book “Earth Abides”…a post apocalyptic novel where early on a lead character finds an old single jack hammer he uses throughout the book…just because it was handy to have around. At the end as an old man, he asks one of the kids to bring him his hammer and with great reverence it is carried to him and all the kids stare in awe. He then realizes that somehow the hammer has come to have some religious significance to the younger generation….while in his mind…”hey…its handy to have a hammer”

After Joseph, along came Brigham and the bunch who instituted the kind of organization they believed any religion needed…he was a yankee guesser after all and you gotta herd those sheep or who knows what they will do! Each president thereafter has done their thing ever since….

Just thinking out loud

In this scenario makes me wonder what the next slice will bring

[Anonymous]

Good point on the difference. I read you wrong and focused in on people leaving the church, not the church leaving The Gospel. Carry on…

[Anonymous]

johnh wrote:

I have heard it discussed here that the church is in a latter day apostasy and that it had possibly been foreseen. I find this pretty interesting. I was wondering if anyone has scriptures, or teaching predicting this apostasy. Seems like it could be an interesting discussion topic.

As for latter-day apostacy being forseen, consider this from D&C 112:

Quote:

Behold, vengeance cometh speedily upon the inhabitants of the earth, a day of wrath, a day of burning, a day of desolation, of weeping, of mourning, and of lamentation; and as a whirlwind it shall come upon all the face of the earth, saith the Lord. And upon my house shall it begin, and from my house shall it go forth, saith the Lord; First among those among you, saith the Lord, who have professed to know my name and have not known me, and have blasphemed against me in the midst of my house, saith the Lord.

I think this means that the church could still be God’s “house” despite needing cleansed. He is patient and puts up with a lot from his children.

As I wrote on another post, the church condemned the practice of denying the Priesthood and temple blessings to people of African descent and condemned any racist remark made by previous prophets and apostles. At least that’s what I understand from this statement: “We condemn racism, including any and all past racism by individuals both inside and outside the Church.”

Since racism in the church was condemned, it seems there must have been a degree of apostacy going on. I believe, however, that any apostacy will not be so severe that the church will be cut off completely. I believe D&C section 13 is still correct in stating the Priesthood “shall never be taken again from the earth, until the sons of Levi do offer again an offering unto the Lord in righteousness” despite the many mistakes of people in the church at all levels.

I suppose it is up to each individual to follow the Spirit and avoid personal apostacy from the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

[Anonymous]

Thanks Shawn. That gives me some real substance to think about

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