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The church has warped and ruined many a couples sex life, or at least diminished it. Having the church involved with any kind of sex education would be crazy to me. I am with cwald. It would be far better if the church stayed out of the sex business. That is unless they want to take it serious and have a real sex education program for the youth, with real professionals teaching it. As it is all the youth get is a hodgepodge of ideas depending on the leaders own ideas. Sex is not like doctrine, that can be made up and peddled as reality. It is real and has real consequences, both good and bad. Good sex education will not stop teenage pregnancy and other associated problems, but at least it may give youth a fighting chance to make correct decisions. Education seems is a better approach than fear to me.
I just did a fireside for our ward where we discussed – SSA
– Sexual abuse
– Protecting families from the internet
– Intimacy between husband and wife
– Teach youth about sex
– Pornography
It was well received. Many commented on how it walked the line beautifully and helped a lot who attended better understand those issues. I taught them that what happens in the bedroom is between them and the spirit. I explained that some leaders have tried to suggest what is and isn’t appropriate in a couples sex life though other leaders have said the Church sees no responsibility in delving into this area of council and that all member should heed the spirit and their conscience.
I also explained that we have to do a much better job at seeing Sex as good, approved and encouraged by God and that we ought not to feel as inhibited as so many of us do.
I also said that does not mean anything goes. We have been taught that anything unholy or impure is a violation of the spirit and after dealing with past assumptions and pondering the act and dealing with other influences, if it still feels wrong perhaps it is and one may want to discontinue the practice.
Now in reference to kids – We need to teach these same concepts but to their level. They need to see sex as good but reserved for marriage due to it’s powers and sacredness
mackay11 wrote:johnh wrote:
as Pres Uchtdorf (sp?) says “Don’t judge me because I sin differently than you do”
I love his talks. An olive branch.
Do you know where this is from? I’d love to add it to my list of ‘handy quotes.’
I have this bookmarked in my android scriptures…..this and his talk speaking on “Canned Food Mormons”
I truly believe he is the Olive branch in merging the old members with the new….The quote I used was from April 2012 conference. I was in Idaho attending one of my Uncles funerals and stopped by on of my other Uncles (who has since passed away) home to say goodbye as we prepared for the 12 hour drive home. My uncle and Aunt were watching conference and he almost choked laughing and he said “Did you hear that John!!” so we rewound and heard it again. I think this really helped him as he spent most of his life drinking beer and smoking until his final decade or so…..and had his share of being judged (he was a great and wonderful person as were most of my “Jack Mormon” Uncles…who would go out on Sunday or any other day to pull you out of a ditch, bail your hay or anything else you needed while the good members kept the sabbath….and yes…I realize that this comment is judging those members…I have a ways to go in my spiritual journey as most can tell)
Anyways…here is the link to the talk:
http://www.lds.org/ensign/2012/05/the-merciful-obtain-mercy?lang=eng Here is the part with the quote I mentioned before:
This topic of judging others could actually be taught in a two-word sermon. When it comes to hating, gossiping, ignoring, ridiculing, holding grudges, or wanting to cause harm, please apply the following:
Stop it!
It’s that simple. We simply have to stop judging others and replace judgmental thoughts and feelings with a heart full of love for God and His children. God is our Father. We are His children. We are all brothers and sisters. I don’t know exactly how to articulate this point of not judging others with sufficient eloquence, passion, and persuasion to make it stick. I can quote scripture, I can try to expound doctrine, and I will even quote a bumper sticker I recently saw. It was attached to the back of a car whose driver appeared to be a little rough around the edges, but the words on the sticker taught an insightful lesson. It read,
“Don’t judge me because I sin differently than you.”We must recognize that we are all imperfect—that we are beggars before God. Haven’t we all, at one time or another, meekly approached the mercy seat and pleaded for grace? Haven’t we wished with all the energy of our souls for mercy—to be forgiven for the mistakes we have made and the sins we have committed?
Because we all depend on the mercy of God, how can we deny to others any measure of the grace we so desperately desire for ourselves? My beloved brothers and sisters, should we not forgive as we wish to be forgiven?
Here is the other one of his talks I keep close at hand: http://www.lds.org/general-conference/2010/04/you-are-my-hands?lang=eng&query=”canned+food Unfortunately, from time to time we also hear of Church members who become discouraged and subsequently quit coming to and participating in our Church meetings because they think they don’t fit in.
When I was a young boy, during the aftermath of World War II, Germany was broken and in ruins. Many people were hungry, sick, and dying. I remember well the humanitarian shipments of food and clothing that came from the Church in Salt Lake City. To this day, I can still remember the smell of the clothing, and I can still taste the sweetness of the canned peaches.
There were some who joined the Church because of the goods they received at that time. Some members looked down on these new converts. They even called them an offensive name: Büchsen Mormonen, or “Canned-Food Mormons.” They resented these new members because they believed that once their temporal needs had been met, they would fall away.
While some did leave, many stayed—they came to church, tasted the sweetness of the gospel, and felt the tender embrace of caring brothers and sisters. They discovered “home.” And now, three and four generations later, many families trace their Church membership back to these converts.
I hope that we welcome and love all of God’s children, including those who might dress, look, speak, or just do things differently. It is not good to make others feel as though they are deficient. Let us lift those around us. Let us extend a welcoming hand. Let us bestow upon our brothers and sisters in the Church a special measure of humanity, compassion, and charity so that they feel, at long last, they have finally found home.
I hope that we welcome and love all of God’s children, including those who might dress, look, speak, or just do things differently. It is not good to make others feel as though they are deficient. Let us lift those around us. Let us extend a welcoming hand. Let us bestow upon our brothers and sisters in the Church a special measure of humanity, compassion, and charity so that they feel, at long last, they have finally found home.I’m going to have to read some of the links to other posts. They look really interesting. As a parent, I think it’s my responsibility to address sex education with my children – not the church and not the school either (but I do understand that most people don’t ever talk about it with their kids). I started when they were 9 and hope I gave them age appropropriate information, but I think that the process of making babies was clear after our talks. I have to think that children start talking about sex among themselves at a young age.
I cringe at the thought that the YW leaders in my ward would tell my daughters about sex ed. I cringe even more when I think about the YM leaders in my ward teaching sex ed. As a separate topic, it bothers me that male bishops often ask teenage girls about their sex life. Of course it’s to verify obedience to the LofC but I have to think there is some level of voyerism going on.
To answer the original question – I think some explanation that abstinence is the only way to 100% prevent pregnancy and STDs (although that’s not even completely true either, but it mostly is). I told my kids that abstinence is the best way but that they have to decide for themselves. If they decide to experiment they darn well better use a condom because I’m not paying for a baby and they may regret an STD their entire life.
Thank you. There are some really good comments on here. Bishop Reel, no offense to my current bishop, but you some of most understanding and Christ-like I’ve seen in a bishop. God bless you, Bishop. Thank you John, I read those quotes and wanted to stand up and cheer! As for sex-ed, I agree that it’s the job of parents to speak openly and positively about the benefits of sex, and the benefits of waiting (if that’s what you believe). Our daughter started asking at about it at 7 or 8 and we used a book written for kids but one that was accurate and positive. It was a useful start.
I agree that griping about, but leaving it to school and church leaders is too much of a risk.
DBMormon wrote:I just did a fireside for our ward where we discussed
– SSA
– Sexual abuse
– Protecting families from the internet
– Intimacy between husband and wife
– Teach youth about sex
– Pornography
It was well received. Many commented on how it walked the line beautifully and helped a lot who attended better understand those issues. I taught them that what happens in the bedroom is between them and the spirit. I explained that some leaders have tried to suggest what is and isn’t appropriate in a couples sex life though other leaders have said the Church sees no responsibility in delving into this area of council and that all member should heed the spirit and their conscience.
I also explained that we have to do a much better job at seeing Sex as good, approved and encouraged by God and that we ought not to feel as inhibited as so many of us do.
I also said that does not mean anything goes. We have been taught that anything unholy or impure is a violation of the spirit and after dealing with past assumptions and pondering the act and dealing with other influences, if it still feels wrong perhaps it is and one may want to discontinue the practice.
Now in reference to kids – We need to teach these same concepts but to their level. They need to see sex as good but reserved for marriage due to it’s powers and sacredness
Sounds very positive. Out of interest, how did you promote it? Was it an 18+ only or also youth?
When you say “it doesn’t mean anything goes” aren’t you still giving them implied dos and don’ts?
Surely anything does go as long as it is between two fully consenting married adults? If a couple both feel comfortable with gimp masks and handcuffs then why suggest it’s inappropriate? If, on the other hand, you have one partner who is uncomfortable with anything beyond ‘traditional’ then I would hate the idea of the other partner forcing them to do something they didn’t want.
Sex is an intimate celebration between a married couple. Let them do it however they (both) like, without any fear of guilt.
One other thing, a different Bishop I had (a doctor) used to encourage couples to use vibrators together to increase the chance of female orgasm. Good on him I say.
I hope the 60s prudes who used to deny a temple recommend to people who had oral sex (???!!!) are long gone.
johnh wrote:I do believe that mairtal fiedlity leads to a higher fulness of happiness. I also believe that,
at best, p0rn generally leads to hurt feelings when a wife finds a husband partakes(interestingly I don’t think a lot of men would be nearly as upset if they found out their wives partook) and MAY lead to divorce, potential addiction and infeidelity when left unchecked…let God work out the punishment. Lets spread the good news, lets teach principals that lead to happiness and lets be understanding and realize nobody is perfectand we will all sin in different ways and as Pres Uchtdorf (sp?) says “Don’t judge me because I sin differently than you do”. Mom, Dad, talk to your kids, lets be open and honest about it all, lets also explain the physical, emotional and spiritual results that can occur… It doesn’t surprise me that many women will not be very happy about their husband’s porn habits and not just TBM women but many Jack Mormons, NOMs, and non-Mormons as well. However, I have also noticed that some women are not bothered by porn nearly as much as others. So what is the difference between women that feel like porn is so bad and unacceptable that it is worth getting a divorce over and women that can actually watch it themselves without acting like it is all that unusual or terrible? Maybe some of it boils down to personality differences but my theory is that a major factor in how people react is simply the expectations that have been set and the typical thought process they go through when confronted with it.
For example, if a woman already has the idea that men shouldn’t ever do this and that many of them already don’t so it shouldn’t be that hard to just stop doing this once and for all then it will probably be much harder for her to deal with if she finds out her husband has been watching porn than if she already had the more accurate belief that this is something the majority of men (under a certain age) do sometimes. Now if women like this start hearing overblown hype about porn “addiction”, how this is not that different from infidelity, and how any men that do this are sick perverts that don’t care about their wives then there’s a good chance they will wonder why they had to end up with such a defective husband and feel like they definitely deserve better. So it looks like the net result of all the hard-line rhetoric against porn has actually been that it has mostly ended up making many women even more upset than they would have been otherwise which could contribute to major overreactions. So that’s one reason why I think that the Church’s obsession with stamping out all porn use has done more harm than good and is an example of good intentions gone wrong.
The general idea is that if we act like porn is completely unacceptable then that will hopefully make all the difference in getting most men to realize how wrong this supposedly is and have the good sense and decency to stop doing this permanently especially when they know their wife doesn’t approve. However, that is not what actually happens in real life more often than not and what this has actually done is that it has basically driven continued porn use into hiding and now many men will never admit that they actually like it so now we have added dishonestly to the list of things wives can feel shocked about once they find out that this is not really the case. From the time I was about 13 I was repeatedly told I was unworthy, evil, sick, etc. simply due to the fact that I naturally liked something that the majority of other men also like just as much (seeing naked women). Once I returned from my mission and “failed” again it basically drove me to complete inactivity because I started to think I can’t win and if I’m already under condemnation then what’s the point of paying tithing, attending church, and obeying the WoW anymore? What kind of education and upbringing is this to hold up as a standard?
mackay11 wrote:Sex is an intimate celebration between a married couple. Let them do it however they (both) like, without any fear of guilt.
One other thing, a different Bishop I had (a doctor) used to encourage couples to use vibrators together to increase the chance of female orgasm. Good on him I say.
I have also heard of a Bishop that was also a doctor encouraging the same type of thing. The person receiving the council was a little shocked.😮 😯 😳 There are some things that DW and I didn’t do during the first half of our marriage because DW did not feel comfortable. When DW decided she was now comfortable with other things, they were then able to be enjoyed by us as a couple. Had I forced anything on my wife before she was comfortable, that would have been “unholy and impure.” This is how I interpret what DBMormon said.
What Roy said – even to the personal experience of my own marriage. Quote:I hope the 60s prudes who used to deny a temple recommend to people who had oral sex (???!!!) are long gone.
This happened to us 20+ years ago. it was traumatic enough for my poor wife that it changed our um personal relationship and the specter of the experience hangs over us today in our relations….much stemming from her own feelings of guilt for wanting to.
We were very young then…I wish I could go back in time and kick a certain bishops backside and tell him to keep his nose out of where it doesn’t belong.
Quote:Once I returned from my mission and “failed” again it basically drove me to complete inactivity because I started to think I can’t win and if I’m already under condemnation then what’s the point of paying tithing, attending church, and obeying the WoW anymore? What kind of education and upbringing is this to hold up as a standard?
Having faced this struggle as many of us have I found that once I said “OK..they can stuff it…God clearly wants men to be turned on by women’s bodies….not gonna feel guilty for that desire”. I found the need to view such things went mostly away. Basically turns out my obsessing about “not falling” left me thinking about it more than would normally be natural for me. Once i quit the stressed out obsessing then the need drifted away.
In my opinion more than one leader (not the big guys…local guys) get a charge out of talking about it and so the love to bring it up as a subject.
After reading all these responses…let me just add my opinion…again… The church should get out of the business of sex.
Out.
Sent from my SCH-I500 using Tapatalk 2
mackay11 wrote:
Sounds very positive. Out of interest, how did you promote it? Was it an 18+ only or also youth?
18+ only and only members. But all LDS adults were encouragedWhen you say “it doesn’t mean anything goes” aren’t you still giving them implied dos and don’ts?
I gave no do’s and don’t other then never coerce, bribe, or force anything along with stating the Lord has said nothing impure or unholy. So in order to define that I pointed them back to the Holy Ghost and said I will never tell them what is or isn’t ok other then the above and 1 specific = pornography. One sister asked me to define pornography. She said she knew of a couple that had nude pictures of each other. I told her and those in attendance that would be up to them to define as nude pictures of your spouse is not something I would state as absolute pornography in the sense of what God says is evil. I told them the famous answer of the question “Define Pornography?” and the answer “I can’t define it, but I know it when I see it.”
Quote:Surely anything does go as long as it is between two fully consenting married adults? If a couple both feel comfortable with gimp masks and handcuffs then why suggest it’s inappropriate? If, on the other hand, you have one partner who is uncomfortable with anything beyond ‘traditional’ then I would hate the idea of the other partner forcing them to do something they didn’t want.
No, anything does not go. But what does and doesn’t will differ with each couple (Moroni 7 = what brings you closer to your spouse and to Christ)It is up to the spirit and not simply a free for all – my opinionQuote:Sex is an intimate celebration between a married couple. Let them do it however they (both) like, without any fear of guilt.
Without fear of guilt of me, you, their bishop, their parents? yes Without fear of God or his spirit if it has whispered not to do something…. I can’t go that far. Again not a free for all
Quote:One other thing, a different Bishop I had (a doctor) used to encourage couples to use vibrators together to increase the chance of female orgasm. Good on him I say.
again up to the spirit. Also know second hand of a stake leader who said that phone sex might be appropriate in a marriage where one spouse is out of town a lot and that an option like that is better then someone being unfaithful due to the temptation of being away without intimacy for long periods of time. Again this is not for me to decide and every marriage will have a different answer to their list of do’s and don’ts, ask God…. the Holy Ghost will help
Quote:I hope the 60s prudes who used to deny a temple recommend to people who had oral sex (???!!!) are long gone.
I think that is gone and won’t return. But I add that oral sex may be wrong for some and right for some… no perfect answer for everyone other then get revelation for yourself.
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