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The biggest hurdle is to overcome strongly held notions that are false and to open the minds of all men and women to what you believe and what is true. Once we realize some of our strong held notions are false. despite how smart we are and how sure we are of what that notion is. Then we can begin to see things as they really are at least more clearly… lol I live in northern central ohio. If you close I would be happy to do a fireside on this again for another ward. Also happy to do one on faith crisis, or grace if a ward requests it.
DBMormon wrote:the Holy Ghost will help
get revelation for yourself.
I really disagree with this advice. If she and I are both comfortable with an act, I don’t see why any prayer is needed. I fully agree that I’d never do anything that she’s uncomfortable with and would criticise any husband that does (I would consider that ‘unholy’). But if both parties are comfortable and it stays between them and them only, why shouldn’t they be fine. Surely if it was so awful (for them) they would ‘feel’ uncomfortable.
My concern with telling someone to pray about a sex act is there is so much in-built, sub-conscious anxiety and guilt about sex that it’s likely the answer would be tainted or affected by that. Even Joseph admitted to a few ‘mis-revelations.’ It would be awful to think a couple were restricting mutual pleasure because of a misunderstood personal impression.
I generally agree. I am generally only suggesting prayer and pondering when there is doubt or a question. If someone is asking if something is appropriate. ………. but Now to other side of the coin. Not everything a couple does that they are both comfortable with is ok with God.
ex: I am sure somewhere in this world there are LDS couples who are swingers. Both are comfortable with it but that doesn’t matter, it is wrong and it breaks commandments. Just because both are comfortable does not make it ok.
There are things outside the bounds of what God is ok with regardless if both husband and wife are. Your broad statement allows for a anything goes and that simply doesn’t fit all scenarios
Quote:Now to other side of the coin. Not everything a couple does that they are both comfortable with is ok with God. ex: I am sure somewhere in this world there are LDS couples who are swingers. Both are comfortable with it but that doesn’t matter, it is wrong and it breaks commandments. Just because both are comfortable does not make it ok.
Yes, but in your example they are involving people outside of the couple, same is true for pornography.
rebeccad wrote:Quote:Now to other side of the coin. Not everything a couple does that they are both comfortable with is ok with God. ex: I am sure somewhere in this world there are LDS couples who are swingers. Both are comfortable with it but that doesn’t matter, it is wrong and it breaks commandments. Just because both are comfortable does not make it ok.
Yes, but in your example they are involving people outside of the couple, same is true for pornography.
Agreed. So at the very least you have to preface the broad statement, “as long as they are comfortable” with a more
in-depth description. And while I do feel that even some things that occur with just a husband and wife are likely very wrong in God’s eyes (mutilation or rough intimacy that physically damages the body is the only I think of off the top of my head), I am willing to leave judgement to God and not condemn most intimate activities between a husband and wife other then to come back to asking all members to seeks guidance from God if there is any question and to be aware if these activities extend to breaking other commandments (adultery, body is a temple, shalt not covet) ect…
Generally I think we see eye to eye other then you would lean towards letting the couple completely free to decide and I would lean more towards at least being aware of God’s ability to give us answers in this area. I respect your view. It leads to something else I should say that prefaces my comments.
In the fireside, I made it clear that many of the reasons we are uncomfortable with certain aspects of intimacy have little to do with what God thinks is right or wrong and more to do with our experiences. For example – sexual abuse, parents or authority figures who teach sex as dirty or bad, conversations from teachers and leaders in Church that portrayed Sex as a dirty thing.
One must overcome these incorrect deeply held beliefs or views if one is going to get at the heart of having a deeply connected intimate relationship with a spouse that is deeply fulfilling for both. And any answer about right or wrong as you point out is very much shaded by these incorrect views.
Quote:..Even Joseph admitted to a few ‘mis-revelations.’ It would be awful to think a couple were restricting mutual pleasure because of a misunderstood personal impression…
Interest piqued….He did? Any detaills?
Ilovechrist77 wrote:Thank you. There are some really good comments on here. Bishop Reel, no offense to my current bishop, but you some of most understanding and Christ-like I’ve seen in a bishop. God bless you, Bishop.
Thank you,
It is comments like this that keep me dusting myself off and heading back out there. You are too generous. I feel like a have finally come to a place where I have a good grip on what is the church and gospel and what is not. That said I am a terrible sinner. I feel like Nephi in 2nd Nephi chapter 4 where he says
Quote:Nevertheless, notwithstanding the great goodness of the Lord, in showing me his great and marvelous works, my heart exclaimeth: O wretched man that I am! Yea, my heart sorroweth because of my flesh; my soul grieveth because of mine iniquities. I am encompassed about, because of the temptations and the sins which do so easily beset me.
And when I desire to rejoice, my heart groaneth because of my sins; nevertheless, I know in whom I have trusted.
My God hath been my support; he hath led me through mine afflictions in the wilderness; and he hath preserved me upon the waters of the great deep. He hath filled me with his love, even unto the consuming of my flesh.
I couldn’t describe my place any better then he did. I fall way short… I just cover them up well with my good looks.lol
mackay11 wrote:I really disagree with this advice. If she and I are both comfortable with an act, I don’t see why any prayer is needed. I fully agree that I’d never do anything that she’s uncomfortable with and would criticise any husband that does (I would consider that ‘unholy’). But if both parties are comfortable and it stays between them and them only, why shouldn’t they be fine. Surely if it was so awful (for them) they would ‘feel’ uncomfortable.
My concern with telling someone to pray about a sex act is there is so much in-built, sub-conscious anxiety and guilt about sex that it’s likely the answer would be tainted or affected by that.
FWIW, I think Mackay and DBMormon are closer to a consensus than they realize. The real issue IMHO is when one half of the couple at least feels a little uncomfortable (enough to have a nagging guilt), and then they go to prayer or a priesthood leader for confirmation of the act’s inappropriateness. So what you really have are different comfort levels within the couple – and God’s or the priesthood leader’s role is really secondary to at least one of the partners feeling not quite right about it.
I do think there are situations where one partner’s sexual limitations actually interfere with the other partner getting their needs met (I’m thinking specifically of a friend that was unable to consumate his marriage for the first 10 years), but that is an extreme case. Usually these differences can be sorted out with love, compromise, self-sacrifice, and compassion in a way that both parties can be satisfied and fulfilled.
I also think that it is important to remember that these things can even change in the life of a particular couple over time. Love your wife as Christ loved the church. Cleave unto her and none else. Teach correct principles and let the people govern themselves.
Roy wrote:mackay11 wrote:I really disagree with this advice. If she and I are both comfortable with an act, I don’t see why any prayer is needed. I fully agree that I’d never do anything that she’s uncomfortable with and would criticise any husband that does (I would consider that ‘unholy’). But if both parties are comfortable and it stays between them and them only, why shouldn’t they be fine. Surely if it was so awful (for them) they would ‘feel’ uncomfortable.
My concern with telling someone to pray about a sex act is there is so much in-built, sub-conscious anxiety and guilt about sex that it’s likely the answer would be tainted or affected by that.
FWIW, I think Mackay and DBMormon are closer to a consensus than they realize. The real issue IMHO is when one half of the couple at least feels a little uncomfortable (enough to have a nagging guilt), and then they go to prayer or a priesthood leader for confirmation of the act’s inappropriateness. So what you really have are different comfort levels within the couple – and God’s or the priesthood leader’s role is really secondary to at least one of the partners feeling not quite right about it.
I do think there are situations where one partner’s sexual limitations actually interfere with the other partner getting their needs met (I’m thinking specifically of a friend that was unable to consumate his marriage for the first 10 years), but that is an extreme case. Usually these differences can be sorted out with love, compromise, self-sacrifice, and compassion in a way that both parties can be satisfied and fulfilled.
I also think that it is important to remember that these things can even change in the life of a particular couple over time. Love your wife as Christ loved the church. Cleave unto her and none else. Teach correct principles and let the people govern themselves.
AMEN
Oh, thank you, Bishop. I forgot certain words to make the sentences look correct, but you’ve understood what I saying anyway. Fwiw, without going into graphic detail, as that isn’t appropriate for this forum, I am grateful to live in a time with various technologies that allow me options within my marriage while my wife and I are apart that didn’t exist for my parents and grandparents. Skype, texting, cell phones in general, etc. can be wonderful aspects of modern married life. It took quite a few years for my wife to be as comfortable with those technologies relative to our marriage as I am – and she isn’t there fully yet. I have not and don’t pressure her in any way, but she is much closer to my view now than she was even a few years ago.
Relating that back to the post itself, I have no problem sharing what I just said with my children – although it hasn’t come up as a direct topic yet. It goes along with one of the posts to which I linked in a previous comment about the type of conversation I would have with a child who asked. Otoh, all of my children know my wife and I use birth control and that all of their births were planned meticulously – even our 10-year-old. They also see us flirt regularly, and we tease them regularly about leaving so we can make out. I don’t believe in ANY shame or guilt associated with talking about anything related to sex.
Old-Timer wrote:Fwiw, without going into graphic detail, as that isn’t appropriate for this forum, I am grateful to live in a time with various technologies that allow me options within my marriage while my wife and I are apart that didn’t exist for my parents and grandparents. Skype, texting, cell phones in general, etc. can be wonderful aspects of modern married life.
It took quite a few years for my wife to be as comfortable with those technologies relative to our marriage as I am – and she isn’t there fully yet. I have not and don’t pressure her in any way, but she is much closer to my view now than she was even a few years ago.
Relating that back to the post itself, I have no problem sharing what I just said with my children – although it hasn’t come up as a direct topic yet. It goes along with one of the posts to which I linked in a previous comment about the type of conversation I would have with a child who asked. Otoh, all of my children know my wife and I use birth control and that all of their births were planned meticulously – even our 10-year-old. They also see us flirt regularly, and we tease them regularly about leaving so we can make out. I don’t believe in ANY shame or guilt associated with talking about anything related to sex.
In regards to PDA in front of my children, I agree with you again Ray… Are you sure we aren’t brothers? I feel like you and I see eye to eye on almost all topics. My kids who are 6 – 13 go ewwwww mom and dad thatt’ grossssssss!!!!
johnh wrote:Quote:I hope the 60s prudes who used to deny a temple recommend to people who had oral sex (???!!!) are long gone.
This happened to us 20+ years ago. it was traumatic enough for my poor wife that it changed our um personal relationship and the specter of the experience hangs over us today in our relations….much stemming from her own feelings of guilt for wanting to.
We were very young then…I wish I could go back in time and kick a certain bishops backside and tell him to keep his nose out of where it doesn’t belong.
Ditto. It still affects our relationship.
DBMormon wrote:I generally agree. I am generally only suggesting prayer and pondering when there is doubt or a question. If someone is asking if something is appropriate. ………. but
Now to other side of the coin. Not everything a couple does that they are both comfortable with is ok with God.
ex: I am sure somewhere in this world there are LDS couples who are swingers. Both are comfortable with it but that doesn’t matter, it is wrong and it breaks commandments. Just because both are comfortable does not make it ok.
There are things outside the bounds of what God is ok with regardless if both husband and wife are. Your broad statement allows for a anything goes and that simply doesn’t fit all scenarios
Holy moly DB! I go away for a few hours and come back to the discussion extending to swinging and mutilations!
I’m a little confused though. Are you saying that couples should speak spiritual guidance about whether swinging is ok?!
Surely that needs no discussion given the law of chastity has a very clear instruction to only have sexual relations with your spouse. I’m fairly sure swinging doesn’t need to be prayed about
Maybe I should suggest it as something to pray about at the next priesthood opening exercises. The ex-mission pres would choke on his own epiglottis
On a serious note though. I think we’re indeed on the same page and overall I admire the fact that you’ve approached this at church at all.
My approach is that if there’s something my wife feels uncomfortable doing… we don’t do it. I’ve never even considered asking her if we could pray about it (when she was active). My view is that if either feel uncomfortable doing something, it’s off the menu. That way I’m certain that what’s done is willingly and happily done. It’s supposed to be a moment of intimacy and pleasure. The more comfortable both feel about things the better.
mackay11 wrote:DBMormon wrote:I generally agree. I am generally only suggesting prayer and pondering when there is doubt or a question. If someone is asking if something is appropriate. ………. but
Now to other side of the coin. Not everything a couple does that they are both comfortable with is ok with God.
ex: I am sure somewhere in this world there are LDS couples who are swingers. Both are comfortable with it but that doesn’t matter, it is wrong and it breaks commandments. Just because both are comfortable does not make it ok.
There are things outside the bounds of what God is ok with regardless if both husband and wife are. Your broad statement allows for a anything goes and that simply doesn’t fit all scenarios
Holy moly DB! I go away for a few hours and come back to the discussion extending to swinging and mutilations!
I’m a little confused though. Are you saying that couples should speak spiritual guidance about whether swinging is ok?!
Surely that needs no discussion given the law of chastity has a very clear instruction to only have sexual relations with your spouse. I’m fairly sure swinging doesn’t need to be prayed about
Maybe I should suggest it as something to pray about at the next priesthood opening exercises. The ex-mission pres would choke on his own epiglottis
On a serious note though. I think we’re indeed on the same page and overall I admire the fact that you’ve approached this at church at all.
My approach is that if there’s something my wife feels uncomfortable doing… we don’t do it. I’ve never even considered asking her if we could pray about it (when she was active). My view is that if either feel uncomfortable doing something, it’s off the menu. That way I’m certain that what’s done is willingly and happily done. It’s supposed to be a moment of intimacy and pleasure. The more comfortable both feel about things the better.
lol… No, I am not saying we need to pray about swinging. Only shooting down the premise if all parties are comfortable then it is ok. I agree with your last paragraph other then to say my wife and I have an open dialogue and we both realize we have come into our marriage with preconceived notions and that those need adjusting on both of us.
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