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A very beautiful and moving article in the SL Trib yesterday. I am impressed that this guy has managed to still attend church, and find the good in its teachings. Sad to see someone who is trying to do everything right, but ultimately chose not to deny himself love, get ex’ed. We could use more like him, not less. http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/lifestyle/50729998-80/fehr-isaiah-lds-says.html.csp?page=1 Interesting article. I find it amazing that this guy has been “banned” from his tribe and excommunication, yet he still goes to church, obeys the WoW etc. and says he believes in the church and the gospel, and that he is “committed” in a ceremony to his life partner. Yep – I just have my doubts that god is going to keep this guy out of “heaven” because he has not been baptized or received his temple endowments or been sealed in the temple. Sorry – it just doesn’t make sense to me.
Of course like Ray says, we are much more lenient to the non members than our own. Of course, is an ex’ed considered a nonmember, or do we consider him as one of “us” who have had our chance and the this life is the probation state/test…?
Wouldn’t it be great if as a gay LDS you felt like you could still have a place in the church? I am reminded of something that I read in a letter written to BKP from the father of a gay son… Quote:I never thought I would say this, but as a father given the choice between (a) my son’s suicide, (b) his complete abandonment of the Church and embracing of the extreme gay culture with its emotionally debilitating and physically dangerous practice of anonymous casual sex, or (c) living in a committed, monogamous relationship for the rest of his life practicing the Gospel virtues of love, commitment, and fidelity we have taught in our home, I would have to pick the latter. The Church, however, is now doing all in its power to prevent that.
The entire letter can be found here. It is well written….
Does anyone know if Bishop DAVID ECCLES HARDY is still a member of the church? Excellent article. Thanks for sharing it. If nothing else, it highlights that leaving and staying really are personal choices – not automatic actions based on specific circumstances. This brother obviously has separated “The Gospel” from “The Church” and “Church Culture”. I hope he continues and is a blessing and a learning tool to those who get to know him.
My heart was breaking as I read this article. I was empathizing with this man who loves the gospel and yet is unable to keep his membership due to his choice to commit to a partner that is of his own sex. I guess those are the rules now and it really stinks. I really hope they change the rules though I doubt I will see the change in my life time. I admire his courage and loyalty.
CG
Just occurred to me after reading a post from MH about the WoW —- if Pres. Grant got caught up in the prohibition hype of 1920 and just followed suit with the govt to make the WoW a temple recommend commandment, perhaps there is hope the church will do the same kind of thing with the whole gay marriage? Yeah? I mean, the government convinced them to bend with marriage/pologamy in the 1890’s, to bend with alcohol in the 1923, to bend on the whole blacks and priesthood in 1976. We just did away with “don’t ask don’t tell,” and the govt. has pretty well decided to accept that “gay is okay.” When will the church feel enough pressure to follow suit? I have been reading a book that was given to me for Christmas, very pro-LDS, titled “What Happened to the Cross? Distinctive LDS Teachings” by Robert L. Millet professor of ancient scripture and former dean of Religious Education at BYU. There is one passage that I feel has direct bearing on this thread.
Author Robert L. Millet wrote:“While serving as a priesthood leader many years ago, I had occasion to work with a young man who was struggling with same sex attraction. He had violated his temple covenants but sincerely wanted to change. Church disciplinary measures were taken, and he and I began to work together toward change. He spoke often of how difficult it was for him to be active in the Church, to attend all the activities, and in general to be a typical Latter-day Saint when he felt so very atypical. He committed himself to avoid inappropriate sexual activity but wrestled with his same-sex attraction. One day he asked me, “If I do the things you have asked me to do- go to Church, read the scriptures, fast and pray, plead for divine help, receive priesthood blessings when necessary, and be chaste- can you assure me that the Lord will take away these desires, these attractions? Can you promise me they will go away?” It was a tough question.
As I recall, I said something like this; “I know the Lord can indeed change you, change your heart, change your orientation. I know that he can do that instantaneously if he chooses to do so. I know that the power of change is in Jesus Christ and that dramatic and rapid change can take place. I do not know, however, whether the Lord will change you right away. I do know this, however: If you do what you have been asked to do, and you do it regularly and consistently from now on, God will change you, either here or hereafter. You may be required to deal with these feelings until the day you die. But I can promise you two things- first, these feelings will eventually be transformed; and second, if God does not choose to bring about a major change in your nature in this life, he will strengthen and empower you to deal with the temptations you will face. You don’t need to face this on your own.”
He then shared some scriptures about those who “overcome by faith” D & C 76:53 and “withstand every temptation of the devil, with their faith on the Lord Jesus Christ” Alma 37:33.What does this passage mean to you? By appearing in a book subtitled Distinctive LDS Teachings, how does this represent a departure from (or a continuance of) Gay/LDS teachings of the past? What ever happened to this young man from “many years ago?”
Good question. I don’t thinks Millet’s statement was a definitive, doctrinal answer. It was simply his attempt to answer the young man’s question, shooting from the hip. He couldn’t say “No, you won’t ever change in spite of your good attentions and repentence — unfulfilled intimate relationships is what you have to look forward to if you live the gospel as currently outlined — it’s just the way you are”. This would shatter hope and sends a message that sounds grossly unfair. A podcast we had a while ago indicated substantial evidence that there are biological reasons for same-sex attraction, and that such orientation is not likely to change during this life. My working hypothesis is that biological reasons also cause depression or difficulty forgetting unpleasant experiences. If we will truly receive perfect bodies in the resurrection, and a “normal” body produces no same-sex desires in the brain, then I think Millet may be correct that changes will happen in the next life. But in this life — I doubt it — one’s efforts to avoid same-sex relations will likely NOT bring a change of heart — only angst.
In my view, we are dealt a biological hand of cards, and have to learn to cope in this life with the hand we are dealt. Life is about coping when we are wired to be a certain way. I also think there will be great mercy shown to people who have struggles living the gospel because their biology interferes.
Again, this doesn’t mean we shouldn’t try to overcome, but in the end, the scriptures say that everyone will acknowledge that God’s judgments will be just. And to me, it seems just that there will be mercy for people who fall short of the gospel after great effort due to the biological set they’ve been given.
SilentDawning wrote:Good question. I don’t thinks Millet’s statement was a definitive, doctrinal answer.
I agree but neither was most of the stuff found in the book “Mormon Doctrine” and it was still pretty influential. I guess I am wondering what would be the influence of this particular passage.
Robert L. Millet wrote:As I recall, I said something like this; “I know the Lord can indeed change you, change your heart, change your orientation. I know that he can do that instantaneously if he chooses to do so. I know that the power of change is in Jesus Christ and that dramatic and rapid change can take place. I do not know, however, whether the Lord will change you right away. …[snip]… You may be required to deal with these feelings until the day you die.”
So, to me, if Jesus has the power to change this young man “instantaneously if he chooses to do so” but “you may be required to deal with these feeling until the day you die”- then this is tantamount to saying that God makes him Gay. Just like the problem with evil…If God is all powerful and created all things and could uncreate anything he wanted to, then for evil to exist it must be part of God’s design or at least exist with his tacit approval. Similarly, if this young man is Gay despite his best efforts and God has the power to change him at any time but “you may be required to deal with these feelings until you die.” Then God either put the feelings there to begin with as part of his master plan for this young man or they just occured randomly but are part of a greater pile of advesity that we are expected to wade through in this life that will not be removed.
Roy, “Yup” – even though I don’t like pairing “gay” with “evil”. I don’t think that’s what you meant, but I just wanted to say it, anyway – in case anyone reading thinks that was the message. I do think we need to distinguish between what is natural and what is evil – even as I have no problem with the general idea of “the natural man (being) an enemy of God.” As usual, I just want the right to define that principle in a way that matches my best understanding of the overall issue. I have that right, so I do so.
Thanks for the clarification Ray. I believe I remember Pres. Hinkley saying that the church doesn’t take a position on whether people are born with gay tendencies. I’m glad the church, to my knowledge, hasn’t painted itself into a corner doctrinally speaking. It is entirely posible that the future might contain the descovery of a “gay gene” etc.
I told DW that there should be a Gay GA. She was incredulous even aghast.
😮 I explained that if we are saying that persons can either overcome gayness in this life or successfully live a celibat lifestyle then wouldn’t it be nice if there was someone that we could point to as the role model, just to show that it is possible. What do you think?Roy wrote:I believe I remember Pres. Hinkley saying that the church doesn’t take a position on whether people are born with gay tendencies. I’m glad the church, to my knowledge, hasn’t painted itself into a corner doctrinally speaking.
Unless you consider BKP talk from GC last October.
BKP was OUT OF LINE, and going against church doctrine, and the First Presidency should have “apologized” for it, and cleared up the matter, rather than just changed the text in the printed version of the ensign and try to sweep it all under the rug —- BECAUSE, many members are going to believe what BKP said from pulpit —- never mind what the printed version states. It will become a cultural doctrine, even if it’s not officially LDS doctrine.
I like the thought about the gay/celibate GA. Why not?
I think it’s Elder Andersen who has a gay sister with whom he’s close – but I might be wrong on that one, and I’m too lazy right now to check. Roy wrote:“If I do the things you have asked me to do- go to Church, read the scriptures, fast and pray, plead for divine help, receive priesthood blessings when necessary, and be chaste- can you assure me that the Lord will take away these desires, these attractions? Can you promise me they will go away?” It was a tough question.
As I recall, I said something like this; “I know the Lord can indeed change you, change your heart, change your orientation. I know that he can do that instantaneously if he chooses to do so. I know that the power of change is in Jesus Christ and that dramatic and rapid change can take place. I do not know, however, whether the Lord will change you right away. I do know this, however: If you do what you have been asked to do, and you do it regularly and consistently from now on, God will change you, either here or hereafter. You may be required to deal with these feelings until the day you die.”
Later in the same book, Brother Millet was even more explicit (though now talking human tragedy and adversity in general and not about homosexuality specifically). He wrote, “Perhaps some of us will wrestle all our days with traumas and trials, for He who orchestrates the events of our lives will surely fix the time of our release.”
Again, this whole concept excites me because it just seems like such a better position than to say that people choose to be gay (perhaps by allowing themselves to be decieved by Satan) and that they can stop being gay at any time through repentance.
:clap:
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