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Roy wrote:
Later in the same book, Brother Millet was even more explicit (though now talking human tragedy and adversity in general and not about homosexuality specifically). He wrote, “Perhaps some of us will wrestle all our days with traumas and trials, for He who orchestrates the events of our lives will surely fix the time of our release.”
Sorry but I don’t see that our lives are orchestrated or that there’s any evidence that someone or something will fix the time when trials will be over other that at death. This all seems like wishful thinking and a need to explain. I know what I’m saying is my opinion but for me “orchestrates” is a bit of a stretch.
GBSmith wrote:Sorry but I don’t see that our lives are orchestrated or that there’s any evidence that someone or something will fix the time when trials will be over other that at death. This all seems like wishful thinking and a need to explain. I know what I’m saying is my opinion but for me “orchestrates” is a bit of a stretch.
I too have come to identify with a (mostly) non-interveneing God. For me the idea that things just happen brings comfort, NOT for a hidden reason, or meaning, or we would understand if only we could see the big picture. For me this allows me to not try incessantly to understand the why.
But I have also seen persons who take much comfort in the idea that God does orchestrate, not just with broad strokes of empires and erosion- but even the individual lives of his children. For them, this highlights the belief that God is aware and concerned for them individually. It is also quite easy to find adequate quotes from GA’s past and present to support this position and is therefore quite tenable in the church. There is still the matter of “what about agency?”, but as has been said many times here at StayLDS- We are capable of holding contradictory beliefs at the same time.
I have spoken to a good number of people who have drawn the conclusion that gay people must choose to be gay or God wouldn’t be fair- I’m just glad that these statements of Bro. Millet offer an alternative position.
Roy wrote:
I have spoken to a good number of people who have drawn the conclusion that gay people must choose to be gay or God wouldn’t be fair- I’m just glad that these statements of Bro. Millet offer an alternative position.I went back and read the full quote from MIllet and am afraid it doesn’t seem much of an alternative to me. He promises the person that God will make him straight if he does all the things he should. Easy promise to make since if it doesn’t happen it the kid’s fault. And then he says that at the end of life or in the hereafter he will be changed. Again easy promise. What he tells him is that for the rest of his life he will never have the close nurturing love of another person that heterosexuals take for granted. Not much of a life and not much of an alternative. For me it side steps the reality that he was born gay and that God had nothing to do with it. And belonging to a church that denies that is more damning than any punishment that could be imposed in this life or, if it exists, in the world to come.
cwald wrote:Roy wrote:I believe I remember Pres. Hinkley saying that the church doesn’t take a position on whether people are born with gay tendencies. I’m glad the church, to my knowledge, hasn’t painted itself into a corner doctrinally speaking.
Cwald wrote..
Quote:Unless you consider BKP talk from GC last October.
BKP was OUT OF LINE, and going against church doctrine, and
the First Presidency should have “apologized” for it, and cleared up the matter, rather than justchanged the textin the printed version of the ensign and try to sweep it all under the rug—- BECAUSE, many members are going to believe what BKP said from pulpit —- never mind what the printed version states. It will become a cultural doctrine, even if it’s not officially LDS doctrine. Cwald, the one and only true church would never change the text, or sweep it under the rugRoy, is that GBH quote from his Larry King live interview?f4h1
The Church’s official statement now is that some people are born gay – or, at least, attracted sexually to people of the same sex (since some people define “gay” as sexually active). Also, recently leaders have started using the word “gay” instead of “same-sex attracted”. It’s a huge improvement over what it used to be, even though there still is room to improve, imo.
cwald wrote:I like the thought about the gay/celibate GA. Why not?
I always secretly thought that Sheri Dew was in the closet. It would be the coolest thing ever if someone like her “came out”. I also think that it would be good for the church… showing that it was possible to be gay and actively Mormon with leadership.
(mods, feel free to delete this post if I crossed a line concerning Sis Dew’s sexuality!
😯 )I just finished the Dr. William Bradshaw podcasts on mormonstories.org. Dr Bradshaw has IMO some very compeling data regarding sexual orientation. I see this as one issue where we can and should come together as sons and daughters of the same creator. f4h1
flower wrote:I always secretly thought that Sheri Dew was in the closet.
Quote:In March 2004 Affirmation: Gay & Lesbian Mormons issued a statement expressing their “outrage” at the comments made by Dew. “We agree with LDS Church president Gordon B. Hinckley when he says that families are under attack,” read the statement. “But when we see LDS leaders provoke disgust at our families, spend millions of dollars so that we will never be able to marry, and lobby so that our children will never have two legal parents, we arrive at a different conclusion about who is the aggressor and who are the victims.”
If she’s in the closet, she’s way, way in there.
Roy wrote:Roy wrote:“If I do the things you have asked me to do- go to Church, read the scriptures, fast and pray, plead for divine help, receive priesthood blessings when necessary, and be chaste- can you assure me that the Lord will take away these desires, these attractions? Can you promise me they will go away?” It was a tough question.
As I recall, I said something like this; “I know the Lord can indeed change you, change your heart, change your orientation. I know that he can do that instantaneously if he chooses to do so. I know that the power of change is in Jesus Christ and that dramatic and rapid change can take place. I do not know, however, whether the Lord will change you right away. I do know this, however: If you do what you have been asked to do, and you do it regularly and consistently from now on, God will change you, either here or hereafter. You may be required to deal with these feelings until the day you die.”
Later in the same book, Brother Millet was even more explicit (though now talking human tragedy and adversity in general and not about homosexuality specifically). He wrote, “Perhaps some of us will wrestle all our days with traumas and trials, for He who orchestrates the events of our lives will surely fix the time of our release.”
Again, this whole concept excites me because it just seems like such a better position than to say that people choose to be gay (perhaps by allowing themselves to be decieved by Satan) and that they can stop being gay at any time through repentance.
Regardless of your feelings of Bro. Millet’s position on this topic, it would seem that he didn’t make it up out of whole cloth. It seems remarkably similar to this passage from the church pamphlet “God Loveth His Children.”
“In some circumstances a person defers marriage because he or she is not presently attracted to a member of the opposite gender. While many Latter-day Saints, through individual effort, the exercise of faith, and reliance upon the enabling power of the Atonement, overcome same-gender attraction in mortality, others may not be free of this challenge in this life. However, the perfect plan of our Father in Heaven makes provisions for individuals who seek to keep his commandments but who, through no fault of their own, do not have an eternal marriage in mortal life….God assures His children, including those currently attracted to persons of the same gender, that their righteous desires will eventually be fully satisfied in God’s own way and according to His timing.”
Incidentally, the pamphlet does not list an author. Perhaps it is a product of the correlation committee.
Roy wrote:Roy wrote:It seems remarkably similar to this passage from the church pamphlet “God Loveth His Children.”
“In some circumstances a person defers marriage because he or she is not presently attracted to a member of the opposite gender. While many Latter-day Saints, through individual effort, the exercise of faith, and reliance upon the enabling power of the Atonement, overcome same-gender attraction in mortality, others may not be free of this challenge in this life. However, the perfect plan of our Father in Heaven makes provisions for individuals who seek to keep his commandments but who, through no fault of their own, do not have an eternal marriage in mortal life….God assures His children, including those currently attracted to persons of the same gender, that their righteous desires will eventually be fully satisfied in God’s own way and according to His timing.”
Incidentally, the pamphlet does not list an author. Perhaps it is a product of the correlation committee.
Several thoughts here. One, the quote above sounds very fimiliar to me. I believe a GA said it at an Evergreen conference I attended about 3 years ago. I will check and see who that might have been.
Two: One of the most powerful spiritual experience I had, was in regards to my gay son when I wrote the final ending of my book. The Holy Spirit wittnessed to me that I should see my son as in the story of the blind man in the Bible. In Jesus day, it was thought that if a man was born blind it was either his fault or his parent fault. We know how Jesus answered; that it was neither but to show forth the glory of God. One of my favorite missionary companions waited 4 years for a guy to ask her to marry her. He finally did but then back out and told her he could not go through with it because he was gay. It broke her heart so much and she had the opportunity to talk to Spencer W. Kimball about it who was an apostle at the time. She shared with him how her fiance’s bishop had told him to just get married and it would cure his homosexuality. My favorite companion told me that Elder Kimball told her that this bishop was sooo wrong to tell that young man this. He bowed his head and shook it and told her that this is a real problem in the church and needs to be changed. He told her that he believed that those with same-sex attractions are like the story of the blind man in the Bible and do not choose these feelings.
When I had my powerful experience about my son I felt that God allowed some to be blind, and some to be gay, etc on this earth to test those who are not as to how they will treat those who are different so they can be judged. How we treat gay people is so important as I know from personal experience how difficult of a trial this is for them. I have talked to young returned missionaries with this problem many times. They have told me, with tears in their eyes, how hard they tried to overcome these feelings. They fasted, prayed, sacrificed on missions, gone to the temple, did their church callings, and even tried to date girls and kiss them. They told me it was like kissing a fish. Nothing changed their feelings. Others, I have talked to were able to change enough (like a bi-sexual) to enjoy a heterosexual marriage. I have know some who had reparative therapy and the studies I have seen show a very small percentage were able to minimize or change their feelings.
I believe in self-determination and live and let live. Many gay lds people have choosen to live celibate in the church and this is more important to them than living a gay life. Others, have told me that they love the church and want to stay in it but cannot live a celibate life. They have anquished over it to the point of suicide at times. Some, had spiritual experiences where God told them it was alright for them to have a gay partner and are living happy lives. We are all such unique individuals and God sees our hearts. Therefore, I believe each person in the church has to get their own personal revelation as to what God wants them to do with their lives. Sometimes, that may be going against what the church teaches at this time. One thing I do know is that much more compassion needs to be learned by many members on this issue.
Well said, bridget. Thank you Ray. btw. has anyone seen this The Mormon church told her to take down this video or face consequences. She’s now re-posted it and this time it’s not coming down.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ygibBz-AsRQ What do you all think?Honestly, bridget, I question unsubstantiated things like her statement about it threatening her temple recommend and membership. It might have; it might not have. Her wording about the video threatening her recommend and membership itself is ambiguous enough to be taken to mean multiple things. There simply is almost no way to verify a claim like that, so I take it with a HUGE grain of salt. I’m not saying I disbelieve it; I’m just saying I don’t believe it automatically.
That is exactly what I thought too Ray. I mean we were not penalized if we did not give money to or vote for Prop 8.
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