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I don’t think we’ve ever had equality of the sexes, and it’s not going to happen in the current environment. The reason I say this is because I notice pockets of society (and by turns the church) which are patriarchal, and others which are matriarchal. For example, I remember applying for a job with an arts festival, to find that all the other employees were female, bar one unthreatening effeminate gay man. I felt that they wouldn’t like a masculine man in the role*, because it would threaten the hegemony. So we have female dominated areas, and male dominated areas, and fewm if any areas of genuine gender equality.
I’m sure what I felt was very similar to what a lot of women have had to put up with in masculine environments. But while women have moved into various “male” jobs, any man trying to be a flight attendant, kindergarten teacher, certain types of nurse, fashion model etc etc will usually be given short shrift or thought to be somehow effeminate. Why can’t a masculine man be one of these?
In the same way, there are lines of demarcation in the church. The other day I ended up teaching the Sunbeams. Well, actually another guy was teaching them, and I had to be the other adult in the room. I did feel I was trespassing on another territory though. Fun, but different for me. Women have justified complaints about the nature of LDS leadership, but they also have their own gender cabal in the Relief Society. They also have a far wider choice of clothing to wear on a sunday than we do.
I would wish it were different, but it’s not…
* I’m not one of those who tries to put on a fake machismo, I just happen to be well built, heterosexual man. I have tried to explore my feminine side, but my physical type doesn’t mean I’m ever going to look particular feminine. I realise that there are certain men who do fake this, big time, to hide their own complexes. The way I approach my emotions, sexuality, my home, food and dress are all quite unfeminine.
This is a really interesting thread. The true definition of feminism is equality, not women hating men or trying to make men become more feminine or women to become more masculine. What initially made me a feminist is that I personally don’t fit the stereotype of what society views women should be. I’ve always believed that it’s unfair that men don’t get to spend more time with their children in the ‘man goes to work/woman stays home’ business model. (I didn’t know what else to call that.) I have always thought that it is unfair that men are sometimes judged by others because they choose more artistic careers. I see that those things are unfair and I want change for that as well. If an artist man and a woman lawyer get married, it probably makes more sense for the man to stay home, and if the roles are reversed then it makes more sense for the woman to stay home. This is a personal question, but SamBee, it seems like you might be struggling because you are super masculine, but maybe artistic and you can’t seem to find where you fit in our current society? I could be totally off, but I would be able to relate to that quite well.
I have to agree with Dax on the fact that I don’t think women are to blame for men in society becoming more ‘feminine.’ In the church I think it’s because we are taught to be humble, quiet and reverent to show that we are spiritual. (I wish we could shout praises-that would be awesome.) I actually think a big part of it outside of the church is that we are transitioning from a physical society to a cerebral society. We don’t fist fight, we sue. We don’t build furniture, we order it. You only learn the skills you need. I do see it changing for the better on both side though, at least outside of the church. I work in a field where people mostly expect to see men, I am a super feminine and young looking woman. It has gotten significantly better in the 6 years that I have been with my company. I do live in a fairly progressive place, so I may be ahead of what some others are experiencing.
And also, I hate that men have to wear white shirts. I would encourage my husband to wear different colors, but he doesn’t like to go against the grain like I do. Not to rough any feathers but there is a equilibrium in life including the sexes. Invariably when one rises the other fill fall similar to a pendulum. This balance is really between agressive, passive agressive and passive behavior rather then “sexes”. I grew up watching and learning and observing the relationship between 2 couples or work places, groups or environments. Inveribly when I see a shift on one end I see a adjustment in the other as a result. Watching a person of either sex go from passive to agressive in a relationship or social environment continually led to the other slowly(unconsciously becoming) from agressive to passive agressive and sometimes outright passive the more agressive the other became and visa versa. It is usually a slow gradual process and not outright. 2 agressive types usually don’t last long since its like a “unstoppable force meeting an unmovable object”. In this way there is balance not among the individual but in the relationship or group. Shift from a group or couple balance to a individual balance is tricky and requires work by both parties or people etc. From my shared experience with others and observation it really does seem to act like a pendulum between agressive, passive agressive and passive personality traits. Much like the blance seems to good in “good” and “evil”. When one group or person is taken out of the system,another invariably comes up to take their place on either side as a constant. Which “to me” gives a whole expansive perspective on “must needs be opposition in ALL things”. We can work from a balance perspective between the relationships and grouos as a “whole” to a “individual” balance. But as the truth has proven Christ right, there will always be opposition in all things. We can choose how that “balance” is weighed out though. Quote:This is a personal question, but SamBee, it seems like you might be struggling because you are super masculine, but maybe artistic and you can’t seem to find where you fit in our current society? I could be totally off, but I would be able to relate to that quite well.
Yep, I do have artistic tendencies. I’ve absolutely nothing against women or effeminate men working in the creative industries, however, it can sometimes feel odd to be a masculine person in those areas. I’ve been involved in the theater too (not acting, which I just can’t do), that probably panders to certain stereotypes though.
I wouldn’t describe myself as “super masculine”, just masculine though.
Quote:If an artist man and a woman lawyer get married, it probably makes more sense for the man to stay home, and if the roles are reversed then it makes more sense for the woman to stay home.
Kind of. If there are small children, someone should perhaps stay at home. But I think some of the reasons for staying home, such as cooking, housework, laundry etc are now eradicated by labor saving devices.
I’m all for paternity leave too. But then again I’m not an employer! And if you wish to change a baby’s diaper in our ward, you have to go into the women’s restroom. I spotted that the other day. I think we’ve had at least one widower in the ward in my time as well.
Quote:I actually think a big part of it outside of the church is that we are transitioning from a physical society to a cerebral society.
Or the labor is getting shifted overseas! Some of the arts and crafts movements recognized this years ago, and tried to get people to value old fashioned skills over mass production.
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