LDSLiving – For Those Who Are Done With Church—The Rest of Us Need You Desperately

[Anonymous]

http://www.ldsliving.com/For-Those-Who-Are-Done-With-Church-The-Rest-of-Us-Need-You-Desperately/s/84969” class=”bbcode_url”>http://www.ldsliving.com/For-Those-Who-Are-Done-With-Church-The-Rest-of-Us-Need-You-Desperately/s/84969

The article leads off by talking about how we don’t talk about the problems that we all face when we’re at church.

Quote:

There are logical reasons why we don’t talk about these things. They aren’t typically common issues for active LDS members.

“These things” were enumerated in the previous paragraph. Divorce, sex, infidelity, porn, alcoholism, drug addiction, being friendless, sexual abuse, having a gay kid, or having a kid that was sent home early from their mission.

First off, I think these are all common issues for active LDS members. What’s the real divide here, people that have these problems and people who don’t or whatever it is that prevents us from showing vulnerability in our community? BTW, why do you think we don’t talk about these things at church?

Second, people that leave may not consider the things that our culture considers problems to be actual problems. For instance, the “problem” of having a gay child. I’m sure there are parents that believe that is a problem but what of the parents that don’t? What of the parents that are 100% accepting of their gay child? What is their incentive to come back into a fold that regularly tries to make a gay child a problem that must be dealt with?

Quote:

And also, we don’t want to talk about them too much so that our youth conclude that “well they did that and they turned out to be fine”.

Is this a good approach to take? I get their point but when I was orthodox I had scrupulosity. Seeing real life people that shared my struggles and seeing that they survived them would have gone a long way for me. I needed hope that I too would turn out fine. I think it’s similar to how we’ve whitewashed history, made myths of our founding leaders, so much so that we start to believe that someone has to be truly special, chosen before they were born, almost otherworldly to have a firsthand relationship with god… and we miss the real story, that god interacts with deeply flawed people like you and me.

To be fair the author acknowledges the fact that we all have problems.

Quote:

What about those who are sitting at home right now in a drunken, sobbing stupor? Whose friends and family have given up on them? What about those who smoke ten packs a day and feel like there’s no more hope left for them because they’ve done too much damage? What about the returned missionary who can’t stop having sex, who doesn’t want to come to church anymore because he feels stupid or because he thinks everyone knows what he did? What about those who refuse to come because they think we hate gays or because they think we don’t empower women? What about those who are truly, truly hurting and confused? Why is it that we only stay within our little circle?

😯

I think that contributes to the divide. We have this mental image that people that aren’t coming to church are in drunken stupor and into extremely kinky stuff. I think a lot of people stay away from church because they don’t feel needed, they feel judged, which I believe is the author’s point here.

There are as many reasons why people don’t come to church as there are people, the article only covers a small subset, but I ask:

Do you feel the church needs you desperately? How would your local ward show you that they need you?

[Anonymous]

nibbler wrote:

Do you feel the church needs you desperately? How would your local ward show you that they need you?

When Salt Lake clearly and repeatedly communicates that you aren’t wanted, it’s hard to feel like the church needs you desperately. There’s not much that my local ward could do to change that, though BYU’s generally homophobic atmosphere certainly doesn’t help.

The occasional “we desperately need you” message, no matter how powerfully given, really doesn’t mean anything in the face of a constant barrage of micro-messages saying you aren’t welcome.

[Anonymous]

It depends on how “the church” is defined.

Many members do need us. That is enough for me.

[Anonymous]

When we moved to Florida 7 years ago, we contacted the new bishop for help in moving in. He told me that because my family was not active and because my testimony of the BofM was weak, he could not help us. We did go to church there a few times, but no one even said hello to us at church. Most unfriendly ward with no enthusiasm or spirit in it. My husband was shocked that not one person said hello to him in his high priest class. When I asked questions regarding my doubts, I was considered a trouble maker. So, we did not feel too needed.

[Anonymous]

bridget_night wrote:

When I asked questions regarding my doubts, I was considered a trouble maker.

Perhaps there is a difference between needed and wanted.

Maybe what people want is a nice big dose of “all is well in Zion”.

Maybe what people need is to be forced to deal charitably with people that are different from them.

[Anonymous]

I think many of these problems comes from “Testimony Competition”.

“WELL! You think YOU have strong, steadfast testimony! Wait til you hear all about MY absolute knowledge and trust in the gospel!”

When somebody says they know something, and actually believes they know, it becomes very difficult to say, “The Church isn’t what I expected it to be. I know not everything that is taught is objectively true (it can’t be). I have a hard time coming to terms with *specific church doctrine/historial event*. I know for certain that many pass incorrect judgements on ‘truth’ when under the influence of what they believe is the ‘Spirit’.”

My existence is an afront to their testimony! Their only possible response is to either distance themselves from me, or help me see the error of my ways. I understand the “why” behind members who feel they are done with Church. It is impossible for them to comprehend that there might be very real issues with the Church’s concept of absolute truth; and that it is the source of my doubts. “Lack of faith”, “deception”, and “sin” are the only possibilities, according to their world view.

Co-existance is very difficult. Persisting in Church activity is very difficult. That is why I am SO GRATEFUL for Stay LDS. Finding you wonderful group of people, who choose to stay (or at least have the desire to stay), even when faced with the challenges that would bring most into inactivity.

[Anonymous]

I’ll just say that I’m not a fan of this article, and hope LDS Living will get more selective.

[Anonymous]

nibbler wrote:

Do you feel the church needs you desperately? How would your local ward show you that they need you?

Not really…if I fade away (which I don’t have intentions of doing any time soon), the church will be fine and go on without me. Eventually, because I’m on their roster, someone would look me up and visit me, but that’s because I’m on the roster and they would feel a responsibility to try to contact me to invite me. But I can’t imagine anyone visiting my house and saying, “Brother Heber13, we really need you and your perspectives at church. There are people that need to hear from you and you can do x, y, and z to help us.”

No…I would expect the leadership meetings would be about how I’m not there and they need to bless me by getting me back in the boat.

I think that is their mentality. They believe they have the answers to all the “problems” that others have (life with faith and commit to church for blessings to overcome problems). So, when some people don’t feel like those answers (read, pray, pay tithing, etc) are really going to make a difference in their life with their real problems, and all they hear are people not talking about real issues but talking fluffy stuff…they don’t see the need to go to church.

It would take quite a shift for them to view people who aren’t there as adding value if they came back. I think they mostly believe they have something to help those that aren’t there…that those that aren’t coming need the church…not the other way around.

Personally, I have felt that it doesn’t matter if they need me. I need to be at church. I can’t work through my spirituality on my own. I have my journey, and as I interact with other members, I work on things by living the gospel. Seeing things differently than others doesn’t mean I don’t need to be around others. Whether they ever see it differently or not is irrelevant to me. I need to know how to handle myself lovingly around others, and be myself and challenge my viewpoints and keep learning.

dande48 wrote:

That is why I am SO GRATEFUL for Stay LDS. Finding you wonderful group of people, who choose to stay (or at least have the desire to stay), even when faced with the challenges that would bring most into inactivity.

Amen!

[Anonymous]

I guess I should get to answering my own questions. But first:

Roy wrote:

Perhaps there is a difference between needed and wanted.

Maybe what people want is a nice big dose of “all is well in Zion”.

Maybe what people need is to be forced to deal charitably with people that are different from them.

I really like that thought. I never considered substituting “want” for “need” to see how it would change that article.

Heber13 wrote:

Not really…if I fade away (which I don’t have intentions of doing any time soon), the church will be fine and go on without me. …

Yeah, I’ve sat in many lessons that express a similar sentiment that GBH expressed during the October ’95 general conferences:

Gordn B. Hinckley wrote:

Whether we as individuals go forward will depend on us. But the Church will never fail to move forward.

While what you say, the church will be fine and go on without [us], is true – I wonder whether the sentiment helps or hurts when it comes to people feeling needed, at least to feel needed enough to come back.

So my question:

nibbler wrote:

Do you feel the church needs you desperately? How would your local ward show you that they need you?

Snapshot in time… I’d say no, the church doesn’t need me… but then I begin to wonder whether my feelings say more about my relationship to the church than it does about the church’s relationship with me. Maybe the “real” question is, do I need the church desperately. Maybe the answer to both questions is intertwined?

I’d struggle to answer the second quoted question, for me it really isn’t about what someone else is or isn’t doing. If I follow the earlier thought, flip the question around, how could I show that I need my local ward…

Food for though on my end.

[Anonymous]

nibbler wrote:

Maybe the “real” question is, do I need the church desperately. Maybe the answer to both questions is intertwined?

Good thoughts. I just think it is all a mixed bag of stuff.

Church will go on with or without nibbler.

There will be some opportunities for others to be blessed by nibbler and the languages he speaks and the views he has to offer others. There will be moments he is needed.

There will be some opportunities for nibbler to be blessed by others. In some small moment when least expected…someone will do or say something that brings a flash of inspiration not expected, but needed.

Besides these few and far between “opportunities”…there will be many boring meetings and lessons and talks that make nibbler feel unneeded in any way.

That is my guess. There will be moments that make us feel not needed. And moments we may feel needed for a second or two. What will we choose to look for and value in our experience?

While we are hunting and pecking…the church goes on with all it’s problems and imperfections…allowing others to go through the same process.

[Anonymous]

Heber13 wrote:

I think that is their mentality. They believe they have the answers to all the “problems” that others have (life with faith and commit to church for blessings to overcome problems). So, when some people don’t feel like those answers (read, pray, pay tithing, etc) are really going to make a difference in their life with their real problems, and all they hear are people not talking about real issues but talking fluffy stuff…they don’t see the need to go to church.

Oh, now I remember why I clicked Post Reply before that thought popped into my head.

I think that what you say here is a part of it. Oftentimes the only “problem” is whether or not someone is attending church, reading scriptures, and praying. If you don’t feel like those are problems or there are more pressing problems in your life, being at the receiving end of a rescue effort can feel like someone creating more problems for you.

[Anonymous]

nibbler wrote:

I think that what you say here is a part of it. Oftentimes the only “problem” is whether or not someone is attending church, reading scriptures, and praying. If you don’t feel like those are problems or there are more pressing problems in your life, being at the receiving end of a rescue effort can feel like someone creating more problems for you.

Perhaps, in line with your avatar…if they are trying to pull someone into the boat, and yet the boat is just about to get smashed with waves…you start to think “it’s not in the boat that is the answer…it is the tempest raging, whether in or out of the boat…there is a real tempest raging. Not sure the boat is gonna help me. Not sure those in the boat should be worrying about those out of the boat as much as they should be worrying about what they are facing.”.

…in short…

Quote:

a rescue effort can feel like someone creating more problems for you.

At some point, it can feel like you are needed so others feel like they are rescuing someone.

[Anonymous]

I didn’t read the article, but I don’t believe the general membership really thinks they need us beyond doing more work to further the interests of the church. If that’s what the article says (the title implies it), I don’t believe it. If they really did think they need us, they would not be so judgmental. They would not ostracize us when we ask to be released from callings, and they would not be so conditional in their expression of charity towards us.

[Anonymous]

So this appears to be a blog post that was cross posted at LDS living.

The author does not seem to be very good at making her point but here it is:

Quote:

Unfortunately for us, since so many of you don’t feel comfortable coming to church, we members don’t often get to hear the stories of those who are really, REALLY struggling. And God knows that we need to hear them.

We need to hear your struggle, your pain. We need to be inspired by your courage to come. We need to feel what it’s really like to go through serious trials. We need to see your example, watch you fight your way back to peace and joy. You know about a side of life that we don’t. You have some deep wisdom that can change lives and hearts. We need you to teach us. We might keep our distance from you at first, but only because we need to work on being less socially awkward. We really want to be your friend, your genuine friend. But we’re afraid of coming off as insincere. We also don’t want you to feel like a project. We want you to feel like a person. We don’t want to coming rushing at you, clapping our hands and jumping up and down and ultimately scaring you away. But we really do like you and are excited to have someone new to talk to and learn from.

Another little secret? We often notice that you are much stronger than us. I don’t know that most of us would have the courage to come to church if everyone knew we were gay or drank alcohol all the time or were addicted to porn or drugs or had cheated on our spouse or have had an abortion or what have you. The list is endless. But the truth is, we absolutely, 100% need you. We members stay in our bubble, not just because we fail to go outside of it, but because different people don’t usually come in. And that’s such a disservice to both you and me. Instead, we both end up staying either inside or outside of the bubble, never really coming to fully understand one another. Never being able to be blessed by one another.

She keeps assuming that people who are done with church have these huge sins that make them really, “REALLY” struggle outside of the church. Then she says that the church needs you to inspire the rest of us with your stories of “serious trials” and “watch you fight your way back to peace and joy.”

The author seems to be missing something.

I have heard the saying that the two groups of people that are most successful in the LDS church are the saints and the liars. There are plenty of church members that are hiding major sins. Some that are going to the bishop for repentance and some that are guarding a secret. Very few talk openly about it and to do so would mostly be social suicide.

Perhaps the article would be better titled “We desperately need to start talking to each other about our struggles”. Instead it seems to be focused on “We need some struggling people to come to our church so that we can vicariously experience struggle through them.”

[Anonymous]

Roy wrote:

She keeps assuming that people who are done with church have these huge sins that make them really, “REALLY” struggle outside of the church. Then she says that the church needs you to inspire the rest of us with your stories of “serious trials” and “watch you fight your way back to peace and joy.”

If she got what she’s asking for, I can see two opposing outcomes. 1) She’d be disabused of her false notions about people who leave. And then she’d probably start to struggle, over the fact that everyone from the top to the bottom is so wrong about them, for starters. This would be a grand thing. 2) She’d find some way to dismiss their actual problems and thus keep her false notions intact.

I have a guess about which is more likely. But who knows? Maybe she’d surprise me.

Roy wrote:

Perhaps the article would be better titled “We desperately need to start talking to each other about our struggles”. Instead it seems to be focused on “We need some struggling people to come to our church so that we can vicariously experience struggle through them.”

I approve of your analysis and would like to subscribe to your newsletter. :thumbup:

[Author]

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