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I have been an active member my whole life. What brings me here is not really a crisis of faith. I had that more than 10 years ago while serving as a missionary, but today I feel like I am past that. The problem is that I no longer feel like I fit within the culture of the church. Let me try to highlight a few contributors to this problem. 1. I’ve been going through a long period of unemployment, underemployment, and now self-employment. I have tried to pursue the career path that God wants me to follow while still doing my best to support my family. We have struggled financially for a few years now. I feel like I have not gotten much understanding from the church with respect to my situation and how challenging it is. My tendency has been to seek after meaningful work, but the unspoken message I get at church is “Stop dreaming and just get a respectable corporate job like normal people.”
2. Throughout my life I have dealt with mental health issues (depression and bouts of anxiety). Recently I have developed some personal strategies for handling such issues, and I think I’m at the point now where I could even help others with their problems. But I still have some bitterness because I feel like the church was never really able to help me with these problems. Everything I learned, I had to teach myself. In fact, I feel like I had to unlearn certain assumptions that I got from church.
3. Over the past 5-6 years, I have been on a spiritual journey. I feel like God has taught me some very interesting truths. These truths have become the basis for what I believe and my personal sense of identity. So basically I have my own “philosophy.” In my opinion, this philosophy is totally compatible with the LDS gospel, but it’s a bit outside mainstream LDS thinking. The problem is that I trust in my ability to receive personal inspiration, but I have a hard time trusting in the church as an institution. I feel like I’m not getting anything out of church. And I find myself getting angry at people for not seeing things the way I do. I feel like the culture of the church needs to change in many ways, but I’m confused about what my role ought to be (if there is a role) in making those changes happen.
The other day I talked with my bishop about some of these concerns. The discussion did not go very well, in my opinion. At first he got really defensive and put most of the blame on me. Afterwards he listened more patiently, but I didn’t really get much out of the conversation.
I know there are things I could do to feel more integrated in the LDS community. I’ve always had a hard time making friends. But today I’m finding myself in a place where I dislike members of the church and no longer have much of a desire to make the effort. I don’t relate to members in my ward personally, intellectually or spiritually. I’m not planning to go inactive, but something has to change. BTW I am married and my wife feels the same way as I do regarding the points I mentioned above.
Welcome to the forum. You will find that this is a safe place to “vent” or share your concerns. I feel like I am always saying this to new members (and I am), but I do relate to what you’re saying. Our journeys have similarities and differences and that’s true of just about everybody here. I do have issues with the culture, but I am inactive. Part of my reasons for going inactive to begin with mirror things that you mention. I am making small steps toward returning, but I know some of these concerns are still there. Pessimistically I believe they aren’t going to change any time soon. It may sound cliche, but I realize it’s me that needs to change, not them because I can change me but I can’t change them. I don’t encourage you to take the path I have taken, you should stay active – but you may need to find your own way to do that which involves being active in a different way than what you are accustomed to.
FWIW, I also relate to the whole employment thing and we’re very much in the same boat there.
Welcome my friend. I really don’t know if there is any advice I could give you right now but I wanted you to know that you can come here and express your thoughts and feeling and that you will not be judged. I think most of us who post have some depression at times, whether it is related to church, family relations or maybe with our employment. You are not alone and just knowing that can help. I have several friends at church and we do a lot socially but my wife and I do most of the inviting because everyone else are just too busy to do much planning. Our friends always express their gratitude for us being the one that make the effort to get together. Just something to think about. I hope we hear more from you. Yes, I realize I can only change myself and not others. I think change has to happen on both fronts – with the individuals affected as well as the cultural factors that perpetuate the problems. Sometimes I feel like I have a contribution to make, like I could help other people who feel marginalized. But then I’m not sure who I need to direct my message to – that individual or the church in general. I believe in spheres of influence – and I believe a whole lot of pain occurs when we invest too heavily (in whatever way) in trying to change things that are outside our spheres of influence. Don’t get me wrong. I’m a dreamer who has been accused of having a Don Quixote complex more than once, and I have done some things nobody thought could be done specifically because I allow myself to take a little time here and there to dream and see if there is any way to accomplish those dreams – but the VAST majority of my time is spent dealing in my own world in pursuits that don’t involve jousting with windmills.
I would FAR rather have a positive impact on a regular basis on people and situations “near to me”, with an occasional impact outside that normal sphere, than to overlook what I can do daily and, instead, pursue having a huge impact on a broad scale. It’s a tricky balance to try to walk, since I would love to have a broader impact, as well (since, as I said, I am a dreamer in many ways), but I believe strongly in focusing most of my energy on “lifting where I stand”.
Regarding your #2, I agree, the church is not suited to handle mental conditions. My family had similar issues, the best the ward could do was babysit and offer condolences (like we were dead!). Anyway, we didn’t see a church psychologist, like some suggested. I avoided them and went with a doctor who knew his science and relied on science. Hi, Mr. N. – Glad you’re here. If you’re not too keen on being a typical member of your own ward right now, welcome to the best virtual ward in the church. It’s been a real comfort to me and very instructive. No 1 is not a specifically church problem, and you will find many people judge you on it outside the church. A common question is “what do you do?” when meeting a stranger. When I meet the people I went to high school with, they often engage in a kind of peeing contest about who’s earning the highest. I don’t play that game. None of them are LDS by the way. You leave the church, in other words, and you’ll still experience this.
SamBee wrote:No 1 is not a specifically church problem, and you will find many people judge you on it outside the church. A common question is “what do you do?” when meeting a stranger. When I meet the people I went to high school with, they often engage in a kind of peeing contest about who’s earning the highest. I don’t play that game. None of them are LDS by the way.
You leave the church, in other words, and you’ll still experience this.
I agree that this does happen outside the church SamBee, but he refers to something I’ve only seen inside the church and only to the unemployed/underemployed. There is a definite and different judgement that takes place at church related to providing for the family and self reliance and all that is related to those church teachings.
For instance I am part the state retirement system. It does not operate like a 401K, in this state once you’re vested you can’t touch the money until you retire – even your contribution. You can take a loan against your contribution, which you pay back like any loan (but with low interest and you can only have one at a time). In counseling with my bishop while in need of some assistance (I was asking for food only) he brought up the retirement fund and counseled me to withdraw from it. He actually scoffed and didn’t believe me when I said I couldn’t. He worked in the corporate world and really had no clue. Like wise, he threatened to cut off food support if I didn’t go substitute teach – subbing is a terrible job, something teachers do to earn their stripes, etc., and I didn’t want to do that – I would have rather worked at Wal Mart and it would have messed up the unemployment I was getting. Anyway, there is a difference in the normal machismo related to work when meeting strangers and the expectations of some in the church. Perhaps one has to experience unemployment understand it.
Mr. Nobody wrote:Yes, I realize I can only change myself and not others. I think change has to happen on both fronts – with the individuals affected as well as the cultural factors that perpetuate the problems. Sometimes I feel like I have a contribution to make, like I could help other people who feel marginalized. But then I’m not sure who I need to direct my message to – that individual or the church in general.
Please don’t misunderstand, you can be an agent for change. I was simply referring to your statements about member attitudes and how they sometimes make you angry (That happens to me, too). I leave the words of caution for others who like to do that sort of thing more than I do.
Mr. Nobody wrote:I have been an active member my whole life. What brings me here is not really a crisis of faith. I had that more than 10 years ago while serving as a missionary, but today I feel like I am past that. The problem is that I no longer feel like I fit within the culture of the church. Let me try to highlight a few contributors to this problem.
Throughout my life I have dealt with mental health issues (depression and bouts of anxiety). Recently I have developed some personal strategies for handling such issues, and I think I’m at the point now where I could even help others with their problems. But I still have some bitterness because I feel like the church was never really able to help me with these problems. Everything I learned, I had to teach myself. In fact, I feel like I had to unlearn certain assumptions that I got from church.
Amen — I had the same problem recently and they didn’t have the capacity to help me (this was a few years ago). By capacity I mean “room to give me an appoinment”. They didn’t have enough staff. And at that time I was a full-on, TR-holding, sacrificing member. And my issues stemmed from church experiences. Go figure.
Quote:I feel like the culture of the church needs to change in many ways, but I’m confused about what my role ought to be (if there is a role) in making those changes happen.
I agree with Ray that we should focus on those spheres of influence we can change. I personally inoculate my children and to some extent, my wife. I give counter-arguments in one one one conversations with people. I do not try to effect change at church because you will only get ostracized, labelled as a fringe-player, etcetera. Change agents in the orthodox church get knocked down. Don’t do it there — it may even limit your choices in the future if you want to participate in certain ordinances or callings eventually.
Quote:The other day I talked with my bishop about some of these concerns. The discussion did not go very well, in my opinion. At first he got really defensive and put most of the blame on me. Afterwards he listened more patiently, but I didn’t really get much out of the conversation.
I had our Stake President come to our home wanting to talk about our perceived less-activity [he was shocked to find we were active in a different ward]. I didn’t give him a shred of information to go on for precisely the reason you’ve given above. I no longer view local leaders as confidante’s, joint problem solvers, or people who are the “father of the Ward”…they are average people with talents in certain areas, and lack of talent in other domains. For example one of my Bishops was a Dentist. He probably could give great advice about how to navigate through an “access to dentalcare” problem. To help me figure out problems in marriage, probably not so much.
Quote:I know there are things I could do to feel more integrated in the LDS community. I’ve always had a hard time making friends. But today I’m finding myself in a place where I dislike members of the church and no longer have much of a desire to make the effort. I don’t relate to members in my ward personally, intellectually or spiritually. I’m not planning to go inactive, but something has to change. BTW I am married and my wife feels the same way as I do regarding the points I mentioned above.
Then here is my advice. . I feel the same way. Many traditional Mormons have cultural values really bother me in many ways, the egocentrism, and how quickly they will sell you out if you share what you really think that is a bit unorthodox.
Find a cause in the community and dedicate your time to that for now. Serve mankind there for a while. Get a feel for just how big the world really is, and how full of sacrificign people it is. But stay connected to your Ward, and remain active by whatever definition you hear at church (for me, I attend 3 out of 4 Sundays). I now have some good friends in a non-profit. I got invited to a Christmas party recently, and work alongside them in worthwhile projects. Its something I feel really passionate about, leverages my skills, and yesterday an ex-CEO friend of mine said “You are really growing in your talent as a leader”. None of that would have happened had I been content with white-knuckling my way in the church “enduring to the end” by their standards alone. Find somehwere else you can “flourish to the end” without leaving the LDS religion.
As an analogy, the church is like an old girlfriend. We still see each other and do things together, but I have a new flame now. And when I feel regret or angst about my old girlfriend, all I have to do is think about my new service opportunities. And I know that if my new flame leaves me, there are a lot of other causes out there that need my talents. As I say in my signature line — “It doesn’t have to be about the church all the time”.
Welcome to the site, Mr. Nobody. There are a few things that I think are at play in our church culture that are infuriating. There’s a limited range of what people can and will say within church. They give the standard answers, typically. People are generally phoning it in. Every once in a way somebody says something real, and it’s a huge shock and relief to all of us. But generally, we don’t stray too far from what is normal and acceptable to say. There are two political terms I sometimes think about that apply at church: 1)
the Overton window. a political theory that describes as a narrow “window” the range of ideas the public will accept. On this theory, an idea’s political viability depends mainly on whether it falls within that window rather than on politicians’ individual preferences.[1] It is named for its originator, Joseph P. Overton (1960-2003),[2] a former vice president of the Mackinac Center for Public Policy.[3] At any given moment, the “window” includes a range of policies considered politically acceptable in the current climate of public opinion, which a politician can recommend without being considered too extreme to gain or keep public office. 2)
Spiral of Silence. Spiral of silence theory describes the process by which one opinion becomes dominant as those who perceive their opinion to be in the minority do not speak up because society threatens individuals with fear of isolation. The assessment of one’s social environment may not always be correct with reality. We’ve all seen these two theories in play at church, but what I have to continually remind myself is that the real people are actually not this narrow. They only express within these norms to stay off the radar or because that’s just what we do. (We do it within companies we work in also, as an example; we also do it within our families). Whenever I have a one-on-one conversation with someone I always find there is more to them than what they present at church. Church is just not a very safe place for people to be themselves sometimes, or at least they think so.
hawkgrrrl wrote:2)
Spiral of Silence. Spiral of silence theory describes the process by which one opinion becomes dominant as those who perceive their opinion to be in the minority do not speak up because society threatens individuals with fear of isolation. The assessment of one’s social environment may not always be correct with reality. This appears to be another term for GroupThink. GroupThink refers to the tendency for people to go along with a decision because they think everyone else wants its. But in actuality, a significant number of people are against it. The solution — speak up!!! That’s what the studies say! One person speaking up can change the whole decision of the group as others realize they are not alone.
I had one of these moments in HP Group recently. It was on home teaching. The HPGL throuht training on the purpose of HT was the answer to these 30 year veteran’s lackluster performance in home teaching (synonymn — INEFFECTIVE SNOOZEVILLE). I piped up and said the problem was that we measure success wrong. Success is not whether you hit the gold standard of a visit in the home. Success is if you meet the person at the level of contact they want. And if that level of contact is “Do Not Contact Me” — and you do not contact them — then you have been a successful home teacher. Motivating measurement respects the agency of the home teacher AND the family being home taught. I also commented on the monotony of it — that if all I have to look forward to from now until my death is the monotony of always trying to hit the gold standard (a visit in the home) and never achieving it — it makes it hard to work up the enthusiasm to do it well and consistently.
An ex-Bishop and two other experienced people in the church piped up and supported my statement.
There was a small consensus that local leaders should report home teaching two ways — give the stake its Gold Standard measure, and also report it to the Stake on a best efforts basis described here — matched to the level of contact the HT family wants. Do that, and your home teaching process statistics soar, and motivation is higher.
Now, HOW you speak up is critical. I also think you’ve got to be really close to the edge of the Window tt make a difference. Also, couch your statement in respect for the window and statements of loyalty.
Thanks for all the comments. They have given me a lot to think about. The other day I wrote a blog post about how the church seems to overemphasize the principle of karma. Every Sunday we hear: “If you keep the commandments you’ll be blessed.” But life is not always that simple, and I believe that karma must be coupled with acceptance.
Empathy is often lacking. The karma mentality is so ingrained that whenever someone shares a problem they’re having, there is always an immediate response: “Well all you need to do is ________. (e.g. pray, have faith, pay your tithing)” You then explain that you’ve been doing all those things and it hasn’t helped. They reply by saying, “Well what do you want me to do??!”
I thought of an analogy to describe my situation. A lot of people carry emotional baggage because of things their parents did. When they come to an awareness of how the poor upbringing has affected them, they might get angry and blame their parents. Sometimes a person will confront their parents about past issues, but the parents might resist and remain clueless and completely unaware of how bad they were. That puts the victim in a difficult position. He (or she) might still love his parents and wish to maintain a relationship. But it becomes difficult to forgive and move on when the parents are unwilling to acknowledge their role in the problems that happened.
Mr. Nobody wrote:The other day I talked with my bishop about some of these concerns. The discussion did not go very well, in my opinion. At first he got really defensive and put most of the blame on me. Afterwards he listened more patiently, but I didn’t really get much out of the conversation.
I think that is a pretty typical outcome. In my opinion, you may from time to time be lucky to find a real compassionate bishop or SP that looks past the church dogma and just sees spirituality and your needs, and can accept some nuance. But most likely not very often.You should realize what people respond to and say is about them and how they see the world. But it can be sad when you feel alone.
The good news is, the Internet has helped connect people outside of authority lines, so now you can find out you are not alone. And you may be able to return to your ward, knowing you are certainly not the only one in your congregation that feels that way.
I hope you feel comfortable to trust us, and join our conversation. Welcome!
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