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When you come from a line of addicts, the prohibitions mean more. There are solid reasons to abstain, and there are solid reasons to use in moderation. The reasons will vary according to the individual – and, as a general rule, abstaining when it isn’t necessary is better than partaking when it can be harmful.
Just saying.
Rob4Hope wrote:I’m on a roll here, having fun and gunna stir this up all over again…….hehehehehe
…
Illegal drugs are not mentioned in the WoW. For example, marijuana. I could say technically that if I lived in Denver and had a recreational puff, I didn’t violate the WoW. I have never smoked pot in my life. But, I think I might want to give that a try.
…so maybe my pot thing, which is also not explicitly prohibited, should be ok.
Rob – I understand that this is a just to have fun, not trying to kill the mood. My brother in law is a pharmacist and he insists that marijuana is as addictive as heroin, or very close to it. And he’s not an orthodox mormon on a rampage, he just thinks marijuana is a bad idea.
The WoW is one of many things that needs would ideally be revamped officially as doctrine. We’ve built a hedge around the law. I think the law should be simple and broad “treat your body like the gift it is: the most valuable thing you own.”
Back to the slightly more lighthearted. I run a lot and I’m skinny. People criticize me for being addicted to exercise and the natural high that comes from it even though my cardiologist says run as far as you want. My mom thinks I should run (in Arizona! in summer!) with my garments on. I’m just done with caring what the rules are and if I got kicked out of the playground I’d be sad for a day or two.
Roadrunner wrote:The WoW is one of many things that needs would ideally be revamped officially as doctrine. We’ve built a hedge around the law. I think the law should be simple and broad “treat your body like the gift it is: the most valuable thing you own.
I am honestly just having fun. So, thanks for taking this the right way.
I think that if we treat our body like we should, all this proscribed pseudo doctrine would disappear.
On a serious note, I read the addiction book by Don Hilton,..and there are brain markers that are measurable that correlated VERY well to addiction. You can look at a brain without knowing a thing about a person, and actually, with a high degree of accuracy, find addictions. Guess what….obesity showed up on the list AS ADDICTION.
So, like I said before, we have our favorite addictions,..ones that are justified and ones that are not. We “wink” at those we don’t want to address. The rules are mixed and don’t make sense….I am the first to confirm that….and it is that stuff that I sometimes struggle with. Sometimes…
The WoW can be a slippery slope, because it’s one of those things that has much more room for gray areas than many other doctrines. For example, tithing is 10%. Either you pay 10%, or you don’t. Of course, you can argue whether it’s based on gross, net, or surplus income. So, there’s still some room for debate, but it’s more black/white than the WoW. We could look at it and say that anything is fine, just because it isn’t included. Cocaine, heroin, bath salts, meth, sniffing glue, injecting maple syrup, whatever… I think it’s one of those things that can get ridiculous pretty fast if you just want to argue that something is fine just because it isn’t specifically mentioned in the WoW. But, if you look at it as a simple guide for healthy living, then it holds a lot more value, in my opinion. I’m one of the last people who would support a doctrine that came from JS, but the WoW makes sense to me. I’m not above drinking the occasional cup of Joe, the rare glass of wine, a Pepsi with lunch, I do NOT moderate my meat intake, and I’d support legalizing marijuana. However, that doesn’t mean that I’m opposed to the WoW. I view it as a directive to live a healthy life. So, while I indulge in certain things that might not be great for me, I also exercise often and take care of my body. I think sometimes it’s just easy to over-analyze things, which I do a LOT. I used to get into the details of the WoW, but the past few years, I’ve just taken it as a general suggestion to live a healthy lifestyle, and I think that’s good advice. Getting into the letter of the law just doesn’t interest me on this particular subject anymore, and I’ve found that liberating.
And, on an unrelated note:
LookingHard wrote:
I tend to think that if Joseph suddenly came to our church today he would be quite shocked at many many things.
I think if JS showed up at church, fathers might want to start walking their daughters and wives to class, and the YW leaders might want to start locking their classroom doors.😯 Holy Cow wrote:The WoW can be a slippery slope, because it’s one of those things that has much more room for gray areas than many other doctrines. For example, tithing is 10%. Either you pay 10%, or you don’t. Of course, you can argue whether it’s based on gross, net, or surplus income. So, there’s still some room for debate, but it’s more black/white than the WoW. We could look at it and say that anything is fine, just because it isn’t included. Cocaine, heroin, bath salts, meth, sniffing glue, injecting maple syrup, whatever… I think it’s one of those things that can get ridiculous pretty fast if you just want to argue that something is fine just because it isn’t specifically mentioned in the WoW. But, if you look at it as a simple guide for healthy living, then it holds a lot more value, in my opinion. I’m one of the last people who would support a doctrine that came from JS, but the WoW makes sense to me. I’m not above drinking the occasional cup of Joe, the rare glass of wine, a Pepsi with lunch, I do NOT moderate my meat intake, and I’d support legalizing marijuana. However, that doesn’t mean that I’m opposed to the WoW. I view it as a directive to live a healthy life. So, while I indulge in certain things that might not be great for me, I also exercise often and take care of my body.
I think sometimes it’s just easy to over-analyze things, which I do a LOT. I used to get into the details of the WoW, but the past few years, I’ve just taken it as a general suggestion to live a healthy lifestyle, and I think that’s good advice. Getting into the letter of the law just doesn’t interest me on this particular subject anymore, and I’ve found that liberating.
OK…well taken comments.
Now,…if the idea of WoW is a general guideline, there is room for personal interpretation. You have to make a self judgement. I know in myself, for example, that sometimes I like a big spicy sandwich that is not very healthy–I do sometimes stuff my face…and I LOVE IT! (and I am WAY not obese…I run and work at it to). But, because I know that I sometimes do this, when I am answering the question, “do you keep the WoW?”….how do I answer?
That opens ALL KINDS of speculation.
If I have caner and chemo is making it really bad for me, loosing weight,..I would consider smoking pot to deal with that problem. I know some people where that actually was the life saver.
And,…here is another TRUE story. I knew a man in Australia where I served my mission. He had a biological nervous disorder that was controlled by some VERY VERY harsh medications. This man found out that after 5:00 PM, if he drank 2 beers, the alchohol in the brew actually calmed his nerves and this problem in a way that allowed him to not take as much or even any of that medication. He didn’t get drunk on the brew,..but the side affects of the beer as opposed to the meds were significantly less harsh. As a green but open minded missionary, I listened to his circumstance and what he said. I already knew he was an honest man. I asked him: “Do you drink for medicinal purposes?” (Sounds funny to ask such a question,…but in this case by golly, it was honest and sincere.) He responded that yes,..he did. And that he had never been asked that. He was mostly just judged and condemned by his LDS brothers and sisters because drinking, in his case, was against the WoW. Didn’t matter there was a reason.
The retort is that he, mister “fred” is not qualified to decide if this is right for his body or not. ONLY a doctor can decide if drinking a beer or taking that heavy medication is required. As if a doctor is going to proscribe a beer!
:crazy: :crazy: :crazy: I am grateful there is a self evaluation for this question. I personally believe that Green Tea, which I drink and has caffeen in it is a good choice. And, I think that this man had a pretty good reason to drink a beer or two.
Rob4Hope wrote:
I am grateful there is a self evaluation for this question. I personally believe that Green Tea, which I drink and has caffeen in it is a good choice. And, I think that this man had a pretty good reason to drink a beer or two.Ha ha! I agree with that, but keep in mind that when I said that I view the WoW as a general guide, that is only my interpretation. Those who are more TBM out there would likely disagree with my tendency to interpret it as nothing more than a recommendation for healthy living. There are always those who view things in a very open and general way, like you and I might prefer to do, and then there are those who insist on strict obedience to the letter of the law (even going beyond the letter of the law and making it stricter than the original version even is). There are a million shades of gray with this one, so I’ve simply decided to choose the shade that works for me.
🙂 Holy Cow wrote:Ha ha! I agree with that, but keep in mind that when I said that I view the WoW as a general guide, that is only my interpretation. Those who are more TBM out there would likely disagree with my tendency to interpret it as nothing more than a recommendation for healthy living. There are always those who view things in a very open and general way, like you and I might prefer to do, and then there are those who insist on strict obedience to the letter of the law (even going beyond the letter of the law and making it stricter than the original version even is). There are a million shades of gray with this one, so I’ve simply decided to choose the shade that works for me.
🙂 I’m going to choose my own way, and be just fine with that. I happen to think that great pain and problems happen when you get a leader who is TBM and decides to push the line even further to STRICT and RESTRICT.
Because I was raised TBM and very stage 3, I have found it difficult to transition to the more nuanced and flexible side of things; but I have been faced with so many conflicts that it is a natural progression to become more fluid and flexible. Otherwise, I would break doing mental gymnastics trying to solve the dilemma’s that come up.
I have had fun posting on this thread. Just so you all know…
:crazy: I once made the HP squirm when I asked the following in HPG Who is following the WofW
1. Overweight man who never exercises, is diabetic and drinks 4 liters of diet Coke a day
Or
2. Man who does triathlons monthly, but drinks a cup of red wine with an evening meal once a week.
Rob4Hope wrote:I’m glad I’m not the judge….but I cringe when I see the statistics on the use of SSRIs in Utah,…and I use to wonder about the people who had temple recommends and were morbidly obese.I read something years ago about the USA. It was that at one time, there was an effort made to rank the health of nations. I don’t know the criteria…but back in the industrial revolution days, America topped the list. We are now close to the VERY BOTTOM. Obesity, depression, cancer, all kinds of chronic diseases, and other concerns are pandemic in the USA, and in a lot of ways, the LDS culture trails the mainstream, just a few years behind. I know this is the case with divorce–the LDS faith is catching up to the national standards, and it certainly is also the case with health problems.
I have also read guys like Dean Ornish, Weil, and Furhman, and most of the problems we have are related to lifestyle. And for the life of me, I remember reading a document by one of the apostles MANY years ago, where the LDS leadership comissioned a member to study how the LDS people are doing with the WoW. The conclusion (and I will look for this study) was that the LDS people obey half of the requirements, and as such, receive half the blessings. It was a real eye-opener. The leadership is aware of the concern.
I’m glad I’m not the judge, either, but my anecdotal experience is that a lot of my depression and anxiety
resolvedwhen I got through the first part of my faith crisis/transition/journey. I had been “morbidly obedient” all my life – thinking and accepting that others knew what was best for me. When I started thinking for myself, life got good again. Here’s my take on the WoW: I’m thankful for it because my parents broke the cycle of alcoholism in our family. We had our problems, just not that one. For myself, I’m going to eat and drink what I think is healthy and enjoyable (Both? Great!) for me. I like that we are encouraged to be very concerned about addiction; we should be.
Sheldon wrote:I once made the HP squirm when I asked the following in HPG
Who is following the WofW
1. Overweight man who never exercises, is diabetic and drinks 4 liters of diet Coke a day
Or
2. Man who does triathlons monthly, but drinks a cup of red wine with an evening meal once a week.
Oh,..I love it!!!!!!
Morbidly obedient! I love the phrase Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Rob4Hope wrote:Roadrunner wrote:But drink a beer and you are in danger of hellfire and damnation.
I believe 100% (and I really mean this) that a beer is less damaging to your health than one of these caffeinated energy blast your brain to space drinks. I REALLY DO BELIEVE THIS…But, the stigma is not about real health,..it is about proscribed choices that make no sense. And,
UTAH beer has very little alcohol in it….but those energy drinks have a LOT of caffeine…Go figure. I guess coffee is bad, but beer and energy drinks,…even when it says on the CAN not to drink more than one in 24 hours? I mean,..come on folks!…I’m laughing over here…. The relative weakness of Utah beer has repeatedly been exaggerated mostly because it is measured and labeled by weight but in some other states it is measured by volume. So 3.2% alcohol by weight is actually the equivalent of 4.0% by volume and if I drink Miller Lite here it is not really that different from other states (4.2% ABV) even though regular beers generally have a more alcohol than light beers (e.g. Budweiser has 5% ABV) in other states.
Rob4Hope wrote:…Hypothetically, let me make my point another way as well. OK…I am 200 lbs overweight (which I really am not,…but for the example, believe it),…I drink about 6 liters of diet coke a day with aspertame,
I LOVE bacon, french fries, big macs, cheese puffs, and I personally ate the last case of twinkies off the cart! I love to drive my car 1 block to church so I don’t have to walk,…But,…I don’t drink coffee or tea, and I don’t drink alchohol or use drugs or tobacco. THANK GOODNESS I obey the Word of Wisdom…Nuff said yet? You get my point?…Comments any one? Personally I don’t believe the WoW was ever really about health as much as a strict obedience test to separate the sheep from the goats so to speak and see who would do what the leaders tell them to or not just because they said so. It sounds like one reason Brigham Young elevated it from a suggestion to a commandment in 1851 is that he didn’t like the idea of Church members spending a significant amount of money on these habits and having to import tea, coffee, and tobacco to Utah. Later it sounds like Heber J. Grant got caught up in the prohibition hype possibly in part because of a reaction to his alcoholic stepfather and pushed to strictly enforce it as a temple worthiness requirement. Now, whether intentionally or not, it looks like the WoW largely serves the purpose of maintaining a Mormon identity of being separate and different from the outside world in a rather cultish and insular way.
As far as I’m concerned the WoW should be abandoned or at least de-emphasized primarily because of the following reasons:
1. Jesus drank wine according to the Bible. No, it was not grape juice because there was no refrigeration back then.
2. D&C 89 literally says that it was given “not by commandment or constraint.”
3. D&C 89 literally says that mild barley drinks (a.k.a. beer) are acceptable to drink.
4. This is one of the primary deal breakers that prevents people from joining or remaining active in the Church long-term.
5. The Church can no longer get away with alienating as many members/investigators as easily as they could in the past due the internet causing many long-time active members to fall away as well as the trend of smaller families on average than in the past.
Basically even if you want to give the Church the benefit of the doubt that D&C 89 was inspired to begin with it still doesn’t make sense that it should be interpreted the way it currently is.
The WoW was written about the same time that adventists were developing their health code and I think there were other movements that were looking at diets that restricted animal protein and favored grains and vegetables. In the case of SDA it’s resulted in a group with excellent health but as been pointed out not the obedience oriented restrictions that the LDS church has. Sheldon wrote:I once made the HP squirm when I asked the following in HPG
Who is following the WofW
1. Overweight man who never exercises, is diabetic and drinks 4 liters of diet Coke a day
Or
2. Man who does triathlons monthly, but drinks a cup of red wine with an evening meal once a week.
The overweight man is. We think of it as a health code but other than advising against tobacco it’s just an obedience standard. There’s nothing in the WoW about exercise or weight control, not even anything that would infer it. It just states advice about alcohol, tobacco, hot drinks and then what grains and herbs (?vegetables) that should be eaten. The advice about eating meat sparingly and in times of cold or famine is just good sense as it takes a lot of vegetable protein to generate a pound of animal protein so in famine people thin their herds. “Diet For A Small Planet” even though it’s been around forever goes into this in detail and is an excellent source for information on the subject. We’re stuck with the restrictions and their being a requirement for recommends, etc.. My wife has a friend and former professor that still drinks a single cup of coffee a day declaring it a “convenient sin” that will keep him out of callings.
GBSmith wrote:The overweight man is. We think of it as a health code but other than advising against tobacco it’s just an obedience standard. There’s nothing in the WoW about exercise or weight control, not even anything that would infer it. It just states advice about alcohol, tobacco, hot drinks and then what grains and herbs (?vegetables) that should be eaten.
OK…this opens up a whole new concern. If there is nothing in the WoW about health, but just a standard for obedience as you have mentioned. I mentioned this above…POT is legal in Denver. I could be justified in using that recreatioinally, and then saying during my interview about WoW that I obey the law and the WoW as well.
This whole “codification”, regardless of whether it is for obedience or health, it tricky. Emphasizing the WOW as a standard of obedience, and through policy and practice omitting the “health” objective (as has been alluded to) makes for a slippery slope.
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