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http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2014/10/letter-to-a-ces-student/ Interesting if a bit esoteric.
hawk, I read this today and though I get his point, I don’t necessarily agree with it. It didn’t sit quite right with me.
I do agree that perhaps we get up in our own head too much (I know I do a lot) and that the real place we feel joy is in the action of being like Christ (happiness is the by-product of engaging in relationships with others, or in other words, service and helping to carry the burdens of those around us).
But I disagree that the Mormon church is pointing to grace…I think that it thinks it is, but often I don’t feel that way when I am there. It’s about the “correct” doctrine of Christ and grace, it’s about wearing white shirts, it’s about the rules, and unquestioning obedience (maybe this is just my current filter and I am wrong or seeing things because of how I am feeling right now).
I do witness the grace that people hope for being enacted in person, with boots on the ground. I see it in the rallying of a ward around a family who tragically lost a mother (happened this week) and that is what helps me know some of the fruit is good and that I can make a difference in people’s lives by being a part of the community. But for an institution that asks of us for All That We Have, we should be allowed to ask if this is right for me.
I think grace is such a given in our theology that most members don’t even recognize it, which is the real issue. Having said that, it is interwoven into many of our hymns and has been mentioned explicitly from the General Conference pulpit FAR more in the last decade or so than it was in the previous four decades of my life. It’s one more case where the water isn’t getting to the end of many local rows.
SunbeltRed wrote:It didn’t sit quite right with me.
…
But I disagree that the Mormon church is pointing to grace…I think that it thinks it is, but often I don’t feel that way when I am there. It’s about the “correct” doctrine of Christ and grace…
I had some similar feeling reading it. First…I really liked the read. Very thought provoking. In fact, I will probably read it two or three more times to let it all sink in. But my initial reaction was something similar to Sunbelt’s…and I asked myself why I felt that way. Was it perhaps my inability to understand a deeper meaning I don’t grasp yet? Maybe.
But let me ask this to the group…if we should not focus on Mormonism, but what Mormonism is pointing towards, not what it is, and try to lose the Mormonism in order to find it…how then, does Mormonism differ from any other religion?
In fact, the term the writer took was the most Christian term “grace”. And one could argue Mormonism points less to grace than other Christian religions do, or other religions outside of Christianity. If I would take a survey of bishops on what they think Mormonism points towards, I don’t think grace would be at the top of the list. Baptist ministers about their religion…ya…that I could see.
If the point is not to get caught up in Mormonism, but to focus on where it points…I might suggest any religion will do that for us with the same approach of ignoring what it is, and only focusing on where it points.
It seems that is not the restored gospel message, but the restored gospel message is to point towards “grace” through the authority found in the church and it’s teachings and ordinances. And the message is not to sacrifice Mormonism so you can find it. It is to sacrifice yourself and trust God to show it to you, by consecrating yourself and giving all to the church, and the windows of heaven will be opened to show it to you as He has shown to the prophets.
Again, I would say…if it is simply about not looking at Mormonism but what Mormonism points to…that could be said of any religion, and perhaps rightly so. But I don’t think that is what the church or this writer suggests.
By far, my favorite part of this well written letter to a CES student is the Buddha excerpt. The approach to use wisdom outside of Mormonism to clarify truth within Mormonism has always been helpful for me. And I find comfort in the teachings that don’t tell me to swim upstream because I must fight for truth, but to swim with the currents of the universe that are trying to teach me the right way to live, and that I should bring myself into harmony with things as they are. And I see some things in Mormonism that don’t seem to flow for me, and I am learning to accept that.
So my question…in light of the point of this letter…what difference is Mormonism to any other religion if we ignore things like golden plates or priesthood authority or temple ordinances, and only focus on the idea that Mormonism points towards grace?
We teach a grace that is FAR more expansive and extensive than nearly all other Christian denominations. The vast majority of members simply don’t realize that, and that includes many leaders. The good news is that it’s being emphasized MUCH more now than it used to be. Old-Timer wrote:We teach a grace that is FAR more expansive and extensive than nearly all other Christian denominations. The vast majority of members simply don’t realize that, and that includes many leaders.
Ray, can you explain this a little more? I guess I’m one of the members that don’t realize our doctrine on grace fully, but now I’m curious.
hawkgrrrl wrote:a bit esoteric.
Adam often reads this way. I really enjoyed his, “Letters to a Young Mormon”. I wish it was included in the seminary program.
I do connect with the joy of serving others. In fact I feel a deep need (especially after watching “Meet the Mormons”) to get outside my LDS bubble and really serve people that are in need.
It seems to me as far as church leaders preaching Grace, I would say that we have in the last few years “acknowledged” Grace, but far from embracing it.
Grace? I don’t know that we teach it. I don’t know that we emphasize it … I understand the philosophical background behind it, but I don’t know a lot about it, and I don’t think others know a lot about it. Joke in poor taste, those are my ice breakers to ease the tension, you just have to deal with them.
:angel: —-
In all my years as a member of the church I’ve felt that salvation was forever out of my reach more often than I’ve felt like salvation was something that was possible for me, and by no small margin. Not. Even. Close. That was
methough, it’s what happens when scrupulosity meets a demand for perfection that is not accompanied with enough love to counterbalance. It’s what happens when the messages meant to motivate and inspire one to do better are interpreted as “I find your best efforts lacking.” We can’t wait for a church leader or correlated material to place more emphasis on grace, emphasizing grace starts with us. Those moments in church meetings when I feel like the scales are starting to tip too far towards justice, perfection, and instilling guilt… those are the moments for me to say something, to right the scale, to help others that may be suffering put an end to that cycle much sooner than I could.
I also like the story of the poison arrow. One interpretation: it doesn’t have to be a horrific event that is poisoning our soul. Being born with enough intelligence to be self aware is a poison arrow, the poison just happens to have less potency and takes a little longer. Knowing that death is on the horizon can be enough to poison our soul and make us miss out on the experience of life.
When interpreting the poison arrow as life itself I understand how the arrow that poisoned me is the same arrow that gave me life. I see that same dynamic play out when reinterpreting the poison arrow as undergoing a faith crisis. Looking back on my faith crisis, or at minimum the portion of my faith crisis that I have been able to process, I recognize that I’m far happier now than I used to be and that it is a direct result of having gone through a faith crisis. Initially the poison arrow inflicted anger, fear, hopelessness, etc. but the poison arrow that inflicted a spiritual wound that would ultimately lead to spiritual death is the same arrow that afforded me an opportunity at spiritual rebirth. The poison arrow of a faith crisis took away but gave back so much more.
If god did suffer that I should get shot with a poison arrow it was to save me, not to kill me. It just took time for me to realize that.
There’s too much in that letter to process in one post. I’ll come back to some other ideas later.
Quote:Rather, start by inquiring into whether that disintegration may not itself be the clearest manifestation yet of the fact that your religion is working.
This goes back to what I had mentioned in the other post. The inconsistencies, the injustices, the imperfections, the improprieties (I had to work alliteration in there) that served as a catalyst to having a faith crisis ultimately made me happier in the end. That’s a clearer manifestation that my religion works for me than the manifestations I was receiving immediately prior to my faith crisis. The warts on my religion helped me to open my eyes and see more clearly, if not for the warts who knows where I would be.
The question then becomes, is there more growth to be experienced in sticking around or will placing artificial limits on myself by staying only stagnate growth? What’s left to give? What’s left to receive? Long ago I couldn’t foresee a faith crisis on my horizon. Mid crisis I couldn’t foresee the light at the end of that tunnel. It begs the question… what am I not foreseeing today?
The letter has a section dedicated to sacrifice. A sacrifice of
allthings. The letter mostly focuses on sacrificing things for god, but god is a thing. I believe there is insight to be gained from sacrificing god as well. A time where perhaps we become a bit selfish and purposely place our will above god’s will. A time where we embrace atheism. The lessons? You don’t know what you’ve got until it’s gone. Sometimes knowing which paths don’t work for you brings you closer to the path that does. I don’t know. I do think it’s interesting that humanity, according to the theology, has already sacrificed god. It’s a concept I haven’t explored but I thought I’d toss it over the fence. In letter touches on Jesus’ teaching:
Quote:He that findeth his life shall lose it; and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.
Despite the fact that most of my posts generally focus on me, me, me, me, and me I agree with this teaching. I’m a work in progress. I also agree with Heber13. We don’t have to limit ourselves to Mormonism in order to lose ourselves in the cause of Jesus. We can lose ourselves in any number of religions or causes. I would really hate to miss out on an opportunity to lose myself (and subsequently find myself) because I had set up some artificial requirement that I tether myself to Mormonism. The letter has underpinnings of remaining LDS at seemingly all cost. Perhaps the author could stand to consider the relationship we have with Mormonism as a part of the all that we are expected to sacrifice.
That said, I do find it interesting that more often than not after I sacrifice something I feel like I come out of it more blessed than I was before. I think I know what our theology says about the blessings that came as a result of having sacrificed god. The connection between god and man wasn’t severed, it was made infinitely stronger. It makes me wonder what blessings would result in sacrificing my connection to Mormonism.
The letter also taught me that the English language is in desperate need of a synonym for the word “Mormonism”
Ctrl+f, “Mormonism”
“over 100 matches”
Even the browser gave up counting after a while.
Nibbler – You and I will battle it out for bad humor attempts. I shoot for quantity, not quality. My foot stays clean since it is often in my mouth.
nibbler wrote:In all my years as a member of the church I’ve felt that salvation was forever out of my reach more often than I’ve felt like salvation was something that was possible for me, and by no small margin. Not. Even. Close. That was
methough, it’s what happens when scrupulosity meets a demand for perfection that is not accompanied with enough love to counterbalance. It’s what happens when the messages meant to motivate and inspire one to do better are interpreted as “I find your best efforts lacking.”
This is one of the best wording of this issue that I have seen. It sure pegged me just a few years ago and I don’t think I would be diagnosed with scrupulosity by any mental health professional. I think this is pervasive among the church – possibly all but the cocky.Rather than try to write a new explanation of what I mean when I talk about the expansive, extensive nature of grace within Mormon theology, I am linking to a post I wrote back in 2007 on my personal blog. It lays out why I see Mormon theology as incredibly grace-infused – and also why we have done such a lousy job, historically, teaching it. Feel free to excerpt from it to discuss here, if anyone wants to do that. (I repeat that the top leadership is talking about grace FAR more now than what I heard growing up and prior to the last 10 years or so, and I am very happy about that. I would like it to be more explicit and theological, but I am glad they are mentioning the word so much more.)
“
Embracing Grace” ( http://thingsofmysoul.blogspot.com/2007/11/embracing-grace.html This is one of my favorite talks on grace. Brad Wilcox wrote:
A BYU student once came to me and asked if we could talk. I said, “Of course. How can I help you?”She said, “I just don’t get grace.”
I responded, “What is it that you don’t understand?”
She said, “I know I need to do my best and then Jesus does the rest, but I can’t even do my best.”
She then went on to tell me all the things she should be doing because she’s a Mormon that she wasn’t doing.
She continued, “I know that I have to do my part and then Jesus makes up the difference and fills the gap that stands between my part and perfection. But who fills the gap that stands between where I am now and my part?”
She then went on to tell me all the things that she shouldn’t be doing because she’s a Mormon, but she was doing them anyway.
Finally I said, “Jesus doesn’t make up the difference. Jesus makes all the difference. Grace is not about filling gaps. It is about filling us.”
Seeing that she was still confused, I took a piece of paper and drew two dots—one at the top representing God and one at the bottom representing us. I then said, “Go ahead. Draw the line. How much is our part? How much is Christ’s part?”
She went right to the center of the page and began to draw a line. Then, considering what we had been speaking about, she went to the bottom of the page and drew a line just above the bottom dot.
I said, “Wrong.”
She said, “I knew it was higher. I should have just drawn it, because I knew it.”
I said, “No. The truth is, there is no line. Jesus filled the whole space. He paid our debt in full. He didn’t pay it all except for a few coins. He paid it all. It is finished.”
She said, “Right! Like I don’t have to do anything?”
“Oh no,” I said, “you have plenty to do, but it is not to fill that gap. We will all be resurrected. We will all go back to God’s presence. What is left to be determined by our obedience is what kind of body we plan on being resurrected with and how comfortable we plan to be in God’s presence and how long we plan to stay there.”
(“
His Grace Is Sufficient
I like even better the way he shares it,http://youtu.be/yLXr9it_pbY?t=2m43s .And I like the parable of the bicycle from “
Believing ChristRay, I really like your post on grace. Especially these two paragraphs: Quote:“A very insightful friend recently described the process of “taking my yoke upon you” as feeling the purity and power of His sinlessness. I love that construct, but I would add the following: Understanding and truly accepting God’s grace occurs when you realize that all of your inherited weaknesses (your temper, your judgmental nature, your fatigue, your lack of self-worth, your never-ending battles with whatever drives you crazy) – everything that keeps you from becoming who you desperately want to become – has been bought and paid for already. He fought that fight for you, and He won. Yes, you were born with things that keep you from being perfect, but He paid for those things – meaning that you truly can take His yoke upon you and walk confidently at His side as a brother or sister with the same eternal potential. It occurs when you realize that, because of the grace that so fully He proffers you, you aren’t required to pay for those things; rather, you are freed to pursue those qualities and characteristics you want to acquire to become perfect (whole and complete) – regardless of the tangible outcome of that effort. Repentance becomes an exciting, forward looking progression toward wholeness, rather than a depressing, backward-looking, guilt-inducing attempt to beat the bad out of you and never again make any mistakes. Bad habits and painful characteristics will disappear as they are replaced by good ones, not as they are “subdued and repressed by sheer force of will.”
I believe an understanding of grace is fully realized when one stops fighting God’s grace – when he realizes that all God wants is his willing mind and heart – when he quits worrying about his individual worthiness and starts focusing on his contribution to communal unity – when he simply lays it all at His feet and says, in essence, “I know you understand my weakness; I know you know my struggles and pains; I know you know how I feel about myself; I know you love me and have bought me, anyway. From now on, I will trust your promise and, despite my continuing frustration and my continuing weakness and my continuing failures, I will bounce back each time and continue to grow. I will not despair; I will accept my weakness and imperfection and failure, knowing you don’t care, because you love me, anyway. I will get back up each time I am knocked down and continue to walk toward you, until you embrace me and say, ‘Well done, thou good and faithful servant’ – knowing I don’t deserve it and being eternally grateful for the grace that so fully you proffered me.”
Brad Wilcox wrote:She said, “Right! Like I don’t have to do anything?”“Oh no,” I said, “you have plenty to do, but it is not to fill that gap. We will all be resurrected. We will all go back to God’s presence. What is left to be determined by our obedience is what kind of body we plan on being resurrected with and how comfortable we plan to be in God’s presence and how long we plan to stay there.”
I really like the discussion about grace. I like that it is being emphasized more than in the past. However – I am somewhat disheartened at what happens to grace when we attempt to marry it to or explain it through our LDS works based theology/culture.
The view espoused by Bro. Wilcox seems to be that grace covers the fall of adam. Grace brings salvation and an inheritance in a kindom of Glory. Grace brings you back into the presence of God at least long enough for a final judgment. I don’t know that this young BYU student would be comforted to know that God’s grace
in additionto her seemingly lackluster efforts may earn her a place in the terestial kingdom. This is where she will be alone and single for the eternities – never to associate in a family unit again. She may be found among all the other good people of the world that did not recieve the benefit of her LDS background – just above the whoremongers and adulturers. Now she can stop beating herself up for not doing her best. And this is from a talk titled “His Grace is Sufficient.” The other view that we seem to fall back on is grace as an enabling power.
Every single timeI hear grace mentioned in SS this definition is trotted out. Under this definition grace gives you the power to choose between good and bad. Perhaps it functions at the front end, capacitating everyone with the ability to make the right choice (if only they really wanted to). Perhaps it functions on the back end, evaluating everyone’s performance on a slidding scale and giving bonus points for those that had less opportunity than others. Regardless this young student was afforded the power to choose, an LDS upbringing where she was given every opportunity to achieve her ultimate self, she was even a world class education at “the Lord’s University.” True that we cannot know her inner struggles, but on the outside it appears that this definition of grace would cause her to be harder and more critical of her performance – not less. Most of my comments in SS are along the lines of forgiveness and love in our church/spiritual journey. DW told me once that my comments can come off as an attempt to excuse and justify my own failings. Why build in qualifiers to excuse some that don’t perform? Why not spend that effort instead to encourage everyone to meet the performance standards?
I agree that grace is not highlighted or emphasized at church. The fact that this expansive form of grace is so meaningful and moving to me seems to be just one more thing that makes me “out of step” with my local congregation.
afterall wrote:“A very insightful friend recently described the process of “taking my yoke upon you” as feeling the purity and power of His sinlessness. I love that construct, but I would add the following: Understanding and truly accepting God’s grace occurs when you realize that all of your inherited weaknesses (your temper, your judgmental nature, your fatigue, your lack of self-worth, your never-ending battles with whatever drives you crazy) – everything that keeps you from becoming who you desperately want to become – has been bought and paid for already. He fought that fight for you, and He won. Yes, you were born with things that keep you from being perfect, but He paid for those things – meaning that you truly can take His yoke upon you and walk confidently at His side as a brother or sister with the same eternal potential. It occurs when you realize that, because of the grace that so fully He proffers you, you aren’t required to pay for those things; rather, you are freed to pursue those qualities and characteristics you want to acquire to become perfect (whole and complete) – regardless of the tangible outcome of that effort. Repentance becomes an exciting, forward looking progression toward wholeness, rather than a depressing, backward-looking, guilt-inducing attempt to beat the bad out of you and never again make any mistakes. Bad habits and painful characteristics will disappear as they are replaced by good ones, not as they are “subdued and repressed by sheer force of will.”I believe an understanding of grace is fully realized when one stops fighting God’s grace – when he realizes that all God wants is his willing mind and heart – when he quits worrying about his individual worthiness and starts focusing on his contribution to communal unity – when he simply lays it all at His feet and says, in essence, “I know you understand my weakness; I know you know my struggles and pains; I know you know how I feel about myself; I know you love me and have bought me, anyway. From now on, I will trust your promise and, despite my continuing frustration and my continuing weakness and my continuing failures, I will bounce back each time and continue to grow. I will not despair; I will accept my weakness and imperfection and failure, knowing you don’t care, because you love me, anyway. I will get back up each time I am knocked down and continue to walk toward you, until you embrace me and say, ‘Well done, thou good and faithful servant’ – knowing I don’t deserve it and being eternally grateful for the grace that so fully you proffered me.”
I really like this perspective – I just don’t seem to find it in my local congregation.
I think this is why I trend to a more Universalist view. I really think people will get what they desire i.e. if you want to party all day, you can have it. Though after a few eons it will probably get pretty boring. If you want to be with your family and you have loved and cared for them in mortality and they want to be with you, that’s what you can have. If you want to be in God’s presence and feel comfortable there, you can have that too. I also believe we will have eons to progress further if we desire. I can’t imagine a post-mortal existence where progression would be halted because we didn’t quite get it during a nano-second in the drops of seconds of eternity.
-SBRed
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