Letter to a CES Student

[Anonymous]

nibbler wrote:

Despite the fact that most of my posts generally focus on me, me, me, me, and me I agree with this teaching. I’m a work in progress. I also agree with Heber13. We don’t have to limit ourselves to Mormonism in order to lose ourselves in the cause of Jesus. We can lose ourselves in any number of religions or causes. I would really hate to miss out on an opportunity to lose myself (and subsequently find myself) because I had set up some artificial requirement that I tether myself to Mormonism. The letter has underpinnings of remaining LDS at seemingly all cost. Perhaps the author could stand to consider the relationship we have with Mormonism as a part of the all that we are expected to sacrifice.

That said, I do find it interesting that more often than not after I sacrifice something I feel like I come out of it more blessed than I was before. I think I know what our theology says about the blessings that came as a result of having sacrificed god. The connection between god and man wasn’t severed, it was made infinitely stronger. It makes me wonder what blessings would result in sacrificing my connection to Mormonism.

This is what I’m wondering about myself.

[Anonymous]

I guess that’s my issue with grace discussions at/in church. I do wholeheartedly believe Mormon theology fully encompasses grace. I don’t believe any other Christian church teaches that everyone will be saved. This happens by the grace of God through Christ.

But, as others have pointed out and alluded to, every.single.time. the topic arises at church it gets tied into and morphs into “strict obedience” and often “follow the prophet.” I struggle with this a lot, because I do understand “God cannot look upon sin with the least degree of allowance,” while the same time I don’t see that Jesus asked us to do any more than believe in him, repent, and perhaps be baptized. I think a lot of grace and mercy come into play at the judgement time, and while “if ye love me keep my commandments” is part of it, what did Jesus teach/command? Love your neighbor. This part of grace and mercy is not generally taught – and maybe that’s because I’m wrong. If the TK is as great as JS said it was, I think I’ll be fine there if indeed I am wrong.

Please don’t misunderstand, I certainly don’t think that as long as we believe and are baptized that we can just do anything we want. I do believe that as long as we are trying hard and doing what we can do we will be beneficiaries of grace and mercy.

One other sort of related point. I resent that because I have “the gospel” (AKA I am a church member) I will be held to a higher standard and be judged differently from those who were smart enough to not join the church. I’m sincere about this – I don’t see a truly loving and merciful God operating that way.

[Anonymous]

DarkJedi wrote:

I resent that because I have “the gospel” (AKA I am a church member) I will be held to a higher standard and be judged differently from those who were smart enough to not join the church.

I think most members would reply with a spiderman teaching, tweaked to mormonism:

“With greater light and knowledge comes great responsibility”

That does make sense of a loving God. He wants to stretch us all to our potential, right?

But…it brings it back to my first question I posted earlier…does mormonism present greater light than others outside mormonism? Do we think others are sitting around with no valid concepts of grace and if only they would accept the missionary discussions could they be enlightened and held to our standard?

Similarly, are they really being held to any less of a standard by God just because we think we have a greater understanding then they do?

Seems to me that I should focus to lose mormonism and seek to find myself and my mormonism and what it means to my relationship with God because I’m mormon. I hold myself to that standard.

Maybe others outside mormonism are way above me with a true understanding of grace, and God is actually holding me to a lesser standard and judged differently. In reality, I just don’t know what others are doing on their journey. I only seek to understand mine.

For someone who is searching for something in their life, I’m happy to share my testimony of what I know. But I can’t compare me to others who may know far greater than I, no matter what their religion.

[Anonymous]

Heber13 wrote:

But…it brings it back to my first question I posted earlier…does mormonism present greater light than others outside mormonism? Do we think others are sitting around with no valid concepts of grace and if only they would accept the missionary discussions could they be enlightened and held to our standard?

Similarly, are they really being held to any less of a standard by God just because we think we have a greater understanding then they do?

I’ve heard it explained that having the “fullness” of the gospel restored makes it an issue of quantity over quality… or to fit better in the orthodox mold, quantity and quality. In other words, other religions have many doctrines to stretch them in many ways but the Mormon church as a more complete set of doctrines to stretch us in even more ways. I’m sure the more orthodox view would also claim that slight variations in doctrine might mean that others are stretching themselves in ways that don’t bring them as close to god as adhering to a more pure doctrine would.

Going back to grace, the orthodox approach might say that there are many other religions with valid concepts of grace but they might be missing a different concept altogether or have ideas about a different concept that are slightly askew. The Mormon church has a complete set of concepts, not a subset.

But all of that only matters for people locked into the concept that there is one true church.

DarkJedi wrote:

One other sort of related point. I resent that because I have “the gospel” (AKA I am a church member) I will be held to a higher standard and be judged differently from those who were smart enough to not join the church. I’m sincere about this – I don’t see a truly loving and merciful God operating that way.

There are many counterarguments in church teachings that cast escaping responsibility in just as bad, if not a worse light. The people that are smart enough to not join don’t get a free pass. “[Those]who received not the testimony of Jesus in the flesh, but afterwards received it.” Besides, if you are smart enough to avoid responsibility then you are smart enough to understand that responsibility and be judged by it, no?

It doesn’t matter, I think that many teachings surrounding this subject are focused entirely too much on how god intends to punish us. Bring it back to grace, change the focus on how god intends to bless us. The purpose of joining the church then becomes a way to provide people with an opportunity to grow, not to hold people to a higher standard from which they will be mercilessly judged. People that don’t join just miss an opportunity… and they may find equally valid opportunities elsewhere.

Edit:

We’re all unique and all of us have slight variations in how we make a connection with deity. Perhaps the wealth of religions in the world is meant to provide unique people with better fitting opportunities to grow. If one approach doesn’t work for someone all hope is not lost for that person, there are many other approaches and hence many other opportunities out there for someone to be reached. Perhaps different religions isn’t a problem to be corrected so much as it is something to be celebrated.

[Anonymous]

nibbler wrote:

If one approach doesn’t work for someone all hope is not lost for that person, there are many other approaches and hence many other opportunities out there for someone to be reached. Perhaps different religions isn’t a problem to be corrected so much as it is something to be celebrated.

yes…celebrate goodness, wherever or however we find it.

[Anonymous]

Quote:

Brad Wilcox wrote:

She said, “Right! Like I don’t have to do anything?”“Oh no,” I said, “you have plenty to do, but it is not to fill that gap. We will all be resurrected. We will all go back to God’s presence. What is left to be determined by our obedience is what kind of body we plan on being resurrected with and how comfortable we plan to be in God’s presence and how long we plan to stay there.”

I really like the discussion about grace. I like that it is being emphasized more than in the past. However – I am somewhat disheartened at what happens to grace when we attempt to marry it to or explain it through our LDS works based theology/culture.

The view espoused by Bro. Wilcox seems to be that grace covers the fall of adam. Grace brings salvation and an inheritance in a kindom of Glory. Grace brings you back into the presence of God at least long enough for a final judgment. I don’t know that this young BYU student would be comforted to know that God’s grace in addition to her seemingly lackluster efforts may earn her a place in the terestial kingdom. This is where she will be alone and single for the eternities – never to associate in a family unit again. She may be found among all the other good people of the world that did not recieve the benefit of her LDS background – just above the whoremongers and adulturers. Now she can stop beating herself up for not doing her best. And this is from a talk titled “His Grace is Sufficient.”

I don’t find his view of grace helpful at all either, but it is exactly what I’ve been told by my bishop. I understand that it is much more promising than other Christian beliefs regarding the afterlife but it’s not helpful to me. D&C 76 is one that I can’t even look at anymore because I find it so discouraging especially for those who do not accept the church in this life.

Ray, I love your blog. I wish that’s what was taught consistently in the church. I’ve heard from GA’s that grace is very difficult to attain and it’s only given to the righteous. So much for it being grace.

[Anonymous]

The letter reminds me of “The Terrible Questions” by Hugh Nibley. He said:

Quote:

Last week I received two letters that introduce us very well to the “terrible questions.” One was from a gentleman in Colorado, a long, long, extremely indignant letter with ninety-eight questions…

In questions on epistomology our correspondent asks fifty-four questions. For example, “If God is a junior god in the universe, and there are more senior gods, why shouldn’t I put my faith in a senior god?”

Next are questions on ontology, the nature of being. For example, “How is Mormonism different metaphysically from ancient pagan concepts?” (We could write a long book on that question!) “What about autonomy of the human will, and free agency?”

Then come eighteen questions on ethics, or “ethica,” as he calls it…

In the hereafter, what difference will these questions make? The real question, of course, is, Is this all there is? This is what everybody wants to know, the only question that bothers us. If you can answer that definitely, then our troubles are over; there is nothing left to worry about.

To expand on that question, he tells the story of Clement and his questions:

-“I wondered…if I didn’t exist before I was born.”

-“When was this world made, or what was there before it was made, or did it always exist?”

-“Whether there would be a life for me after death or whether I wouldn’t be anything at all afterward.”

It’s interesting.

[Anonymous]

Thank you Shawn for that reference to the Terrible Questions. I have never seen that before .

These remind me of when my son asked who created God? He was never satisfied. For weeks and even months off and on again these kind of questions would come up. To be honest I have never been satisfied by the answers I have gotten except for the question I got as an answer. “What difference does it make if I know exactly what the origin of God is?”

The more pertinent question are:

– “Is there really a God?”

– “Is He really all powerful, all knowing and perfect in every way?”

– “He really loves me knowing perfectly who I am in my deepest, darkest place?”

– “Is my life acceptable to Him?”

These really are the three things that are necessary for salvation.

Let us here observe, that three things are necessary, in order that any rational and intelligent being may exercise faith in God, unto life and salvation:

First, the idea that he actually exists.

Second, a correct idea of his character, perfections and attributes.

Third, an actual knowledge that the course of life which he is pursuing, is according to his will. (Lectures on Faith 3:2-5)

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