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What do you do when you and your spouse agree on most things about the church except for the amount of involvement you want, either now or for the future? DH and I are both non-believers who were raised in the church. We were both “strong” members of our ward and the subtle changes we have made so far have resulted in some “watchful eyes”. I know that there is not one answer to this question but I was hoping that if some of you have experienced anything similar to this, and have found things that work, then maybe it could give me some guidance to find out what will work for my family.
I am not comfortable with becoming “inactive”, or “fading away” yet I don’t feel right just “faking” it either. I have family ties to the church that my DH does not (or is not affected by). Our children are young and I think it would be difficult and confusing if our involvement with the church were to become “slothful”; especially for my son who was baptised this year. Also DH and I are currently holding callings and I think we have a certain responsibility to be respectful of that. DH was ready to ask to be released but because of the gossip that was going on (that’s a whole other story) he agreed to hold off and allow it to die down. I don’t know what the future holds for our family, DH does not see us continuing.
These are some of the concerns we have about keeping the kids in the church:
Will they be treated differently for having parents who are “wishy washy”?
Do we continue to serve in the church to make it easier on them?
How to we keep a balance to their indoctrination?
What do we do if they get married in the temple and we don’t have recommends?
I think that if DH and I are united we can deal with these issues but if DH just wants out and I have to either do it on my own or join him I’m not sure how to handle that.
Those are all very good questions. They are ones that I think about all the time and I don’t have any answers to. I don’t have much to add but I wanted you to know that you are not alone in your questions. I’m taking a very Taoist approach at the moment and letting things be. I’m not forcing anything nor am I being unthoughtful about it. Just trying to go with the flow. So far its working well. I might add that going with the flow might seem wishy washy to some but it is the exact opposite in my opinion. You are turning things over to a power greater than yourself to let things work themselves out. Getting over what others are thinking is one of the biggest lessons I am learning through this process. findingmyownfooting wrote:What do you do when you and your spouse agree on most things about the church except for the amount of involvement you want, either now or for the future?”
My wife is a go-getter in the gospel. I support her every step of the way as a way of expressing my love for her. She, in turn, accepts my contrarion attitudes without rejecting me, but makes it clear she doesn’t want to hear my reasons or thought processes. She also lets me serve in whatever capacity I want to at Church, which is less than what she wants right now.
So my answer to this one is to look at the Church as a hobby/interest for each of you, for you to pursue to the extent you’re willing. Each spouse accepts the others’ level of involvement.
Quote:“Will they be treated differently for having parents who are “wishy washy”?”
You might find you suddenly get a home teacher, that people offer to drive your kids around to get them to activities and such. I don’t think they will be treated any differently due to their parents. If anything, YOU might be treated a bit differently — not expected to be a Ward go-getter like you used to be. When I was less active, I was surprised how they often didn’t expect me to do certain things because of my assumed label of semi-active! It was a reason to stay less active until my own desires for activity awakened.
Quote:“Do we continue to serve in the church to make it easier on them?”
I say Yes, continue to serve in the Church, but for the reason of keeping them willing to accept the basic commandments. As I was reflecting on your question on the way home from work today, I thought to myself — “Is it so bad if my kids grow up as non-smoking, non-drinking, chaste, non-drug using, faithful-to-spouse adults who also believe in service to others?” Definitely not in my view. I’d rather have them in the Church getting all that reinforcement, rubbing shoulders with other kids who have parents that subscribe to the same lifestyle, and getting the benefit of largely carin leaders who are trying to instill those values.
However, it will be hard for them to internalize those values if they don’t see you living those commandments and serving in some capacity in the Church.
Now, I recognize this might be hard given your lack of belief. So, I say, do what you feel like doing at Church. I’m doing that right now. I’m a Sunday School teacher. I prepare for about 1 hour a week, teach for the other hour, and that’s it. When they need people to do just do things, and I want to do it, I volunteer. For example, last night I led a workshop for one of the auxiliaries because I wanted to. It was on a temporal topic that had nothing to do with visions, seer stones, angels or anything. It was just a temporal topic. It was my service to humankind.
Also, I would be careful of expecting your kids to adopt your own orientation toward the Church, was is an adult orientation borne out of years of experience etcetera. To them, the Church is a relatively new and important experience in their lives. Ultimately, they will make their own choices, but for now, most kids need answers, structure, and all the things the Church provides to help them get to adulthood without problems that can hurt them. If you give up on the Church involvement now, their ultimate orientation toward life becomes an even more uncertain wild card.
Quote:“How to we keep a balance to their indoctrination?”
Using a “don’t throw the baby out with the bathwater” approach — teach the baby principles (the stuff you really like and believe) at home in Family Home Evening, and let them hear the bathwater components (the parts you don’t accept fully) at Church. Let them decide whether the bathwater is actually bathwater. Again, if they accept the Gospel whole-heartedly, the worst they will become is non-drinking, non-smoking, non-drug using, chaste, and faithful-to-spouse adults.
Quote:What do we do if they get married in the temple and we don’t have recommends?”
Don’t worry about that right now. When the time comes, make a decision as to whether you want to change your heart about aligning your lives with the TR questions. There’s lots of good advice about how to answer the questions honestly without necessarily believing everything to a “T” that the gospel teaches.
Quote:I think that if DH and I are united we can deal with these issues but if DH just wants out and I have to either do it on my own or join him I’m not sure how to handle that.
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Well, although I advocate acceptance of the other spouse’s involvement, I wouldn’t hestitate to give him the StayLDS article on this site. It ISN’T standard Mormon fare, and will help him find a possible way of staying in the Church happily. I wouldn’t hestitate to show him the reasoning in everyone’s responses to your opening post either. Also, I think it’s important for him to at least have a conversation with you about the impact on your children’s willingness to accept the commandments and clean lifestyle of the gospel without his example and involvement — at some level.
If he still wants out, then I’d probably negotiate. My wife and I do it all the time. Her attitude was — “I think our family can work even though you don’t have he same fire about the gospel you used to, but I don’t want to talk about your reasons and new attitudes in our conversations, and I don’t want it around the children”. You could agree upon a minimal level of involvement that you feel you need to achieve your goals with your children — maybe it means going to Church every week, and holding a lightweight calling. Or maybe it means going to Church every other week, holding some form of family home evening on topics he agrees with weejkly, and doing a service project with the Church once in a while. Or, being involved with your son at cubs, or accepting callings that are more temporal in nature and don’t require overpowering commitment to doctrine, and living the Word of Wisdom for the kids benefit.
Ideally, it would be great if he posted here at this forum so we can help him work through his Church issues without the burden of the Standard Mormon Answers. He might find there is a middle ground he can be happy with to stay in the Church for the kid benefits, which are many.
Quote:Getting over what others are thinking is one of the biggest lessons I am learning through this process.
I am commenting from a public library while waiting for a meeting to start in a while, so I have very little time, but the line above really jumped out at me. I agree completely. It’s not easy, and it still requires balancing what I would do on my own and what I do for “my groups” (marrige, family, local congregation, global church, etc.), but it is absolutely critical to personal, internal peace, imo.
I know that getting over what others think is important. It’s just easier said then done. I have a real great Bishop and that is helpful. He has given me the space I need. DH and he corresponded for a bit. The Bishop has basically said that he accepts us on what ever level we are on and he is not going to make a fuss about it. I work indirectly with some people who I have been told have “discussed” me. It’s just hard being comfortable with that. Not knowing what assuptions they are making is difficult. SilentDawning you talk about how your wife lets you serve in what capacity you want. I’ve realized having my DH make decisions about his involvement based mainly on me is unfair to him. I did have a conversation with him last night that went quite well. He is an active member on NOM and is quite comfortable there. I’ve suggested this site but he’s not very interested. If it wasn’t for my family ties or our children I don’t thing he would stay. One thing he said was that we are in this together. He will not be the Dad that stays at home watching tennis while his wife takes the kids to church. The church’s influence and our practise of it’s teachings, has built our relationship strong and for that I am very grateful.
I struggle with not
SilentDawning wrote:expecting your kids to adopt your own orientation toward the Church
But you’re right if they do embrace the Gospel
Quote:the worst they will become is non-drinking, non-smoking, non-drug using, chaste, and faithful-to-spouse adults
However they may also become adults to are obsessed with perfection, use guilt, and other unhealthy methods to teach lessons and feel they can never measure up.Just remember, your marriage first, church second. It is really, just the parking lot you chose to enter every Sunday. Others churches on the same street might have better preaching, singing, meditation, etc. There is something special about Mormon culture, but only if you can smile and laugh a lot. If people decide to make your family a project, disappear for a few weeks. They will respect boundaries better, when (or if) you return. Quote:Quote:the worst they will become is non-drinking, non-smoking, non-drug using, chaste, and faithful-to-spouse adults
However they may also become adults to are obsessed with perfection, use guilt, and other unhealthy methods to teach lessons and feel they can never measure up.
Here’s where I think teaching at home is essential. You can teach them about things NOT to do in their Church service, such as use guilt-trips, team them to be forgiving of themselves, etcetera. I do that with other pet peeves I have about life, like when people walk up to you and say “You look depressed, tired, sick.. “..when I’m having a bad day. I teach my kids to either say nothing at all, or say something sincerely positive to people who look down in the dumps.
I could see myself teaching them about all the nice people at Church but how they sometimes make mistakes and use guilt-trips, how to inspire people using other means, etcetera. Combat those aspects of the culture that are bad at home through teaching…for me, it’s a bastion of freedom that also helps me feel peace while still being involved.
I also feel that I’m passing corrective values on to the next generation.
We were away a lot during the summer, often visiting other wards. Also I talked to some one once many months ago about polyandry who is now questioning the church (she married into a very prominent [in the church] family). It doesn’t seem like we are being made a project. I’m not sure if anyone really knows what to do with us. We’re not wavering (leaders were coming to us not us to them), in fact we are very confident and I think that caused others to feel uncomfortable with us. I was told to be patient to those who are having a difficult time who have noticed changes in me (I went out on a date with DH wearing a “non-garment” worthy dress and posted the pic of us on facebook). They are used to “fixing people” but we since we don’t think we are “broken” they are a bit at a loss. It seems like we are just being left alone which is fine. I’m trying more to focus on how I view myself. I quite enjoy spending some one on one time with DH during SS walking around the outside of the building and DH loves the discussions he get the high council engaged in. Sorry that was a bit off topic from my original question. I just thought it might be helpful to see where I’m coming from a bit.
There are definitely “clicks” or “groups'” in our ward. I’m moving out of the one I was in and entering a new one, one that I don’t know has even been present before. The youth in our ward do notice differences among each other that do depend on their parents and the group they are seen as being in. I’m the activity days leader and I see this already. My DD doesn’t completely fit with the others girls so I do worry about YW’s. I want to make this work and knowing that DH wants to be united on this is encouraging. I don’t know how it will be until I’m there so maybe I need to just relax and cross that bridge when it comes.
Even the Church leadership has said numerous times that Church is secondary to family. It’s not implemented that way at the local level in lots of places, especially in places like cwald’s branch and others where able-bodied members are scarce, but it still is the ideal. Family first. FMOF, you said, “However they may also become adults to are obsessed with perfection, use guilt, and other unhealthy methods to teach lessons and feel they can never measure up.”
Yep, describes me to a tee. I’m a recovering mormonaholic. I don’t think I used guilt on other people too often but boy did I do a number on myself. And the feeling that I will never measure up was overwhelming. So I really want to help my children avoid those negative results of their LDS upbringing. The other stuff Silentdawning mentions is very good so giving them a balance is really important. Finding that balance is more difficult.
Well I’m not sure what you can do. DW and I basically just do Sacrament meeting. You can remain active if you so choose. I had to get over one thing to come back to church, MY EGO! yes that’s right my ego. The fact is there are a lot of people at church with alot different beliefs so if I want to play I have to play nice. This whole integrity issue with those who are dissaffected kind of annoys me. Leaving the church is perfectly respectable and reasonable if convictions warrant. However if the issues are so big that you feel it’s living a lie (I am including myself here) then frankly it is time to leave or start the transition or even finish the transition. Of course the alternative is independent mormonism ala StayLDS or NOM(Ugghh). Eventually you will have to choose one of the three paths. In the mean time try “home churching” your children. Ask them what they learned at church on Sunday and teach them like you teach them about anything else. It’s no more difficult than teaching them how to do thier homework. Let them know that the home is thier home and no one else’s. Let them also know that you are the parent and until they’re grown that your rules (including church-based rules) are the rules of the home. Establish a “chain of command” Mom and Dad then family than church.
I was raised in a very faithful home but my parents firmly established that our family reigned supreme over the church’s rules and regs. To do anything else I frankly think is ingenuine. It seems your DH is onboard if you want to bail the rip-cord is yours. If your conviction is that strong you NEED to act upon it whichever direction it might lead.
This sort of surfaced when DH said he wasn’t interested in GC. I just feel bad about missing it. For the last few years I’ve put together packets for the kids where they will check off words they hear or “colour the tie”. We then follow up with a FHE lesson review. I think the discussion have been positive for our children. I still believe in the value of prayer and reading scriptures as a family. DH does agree but his heart isn’t into it so I was feeling like I was pulling that one on my own. After our discussion, which started by having him read this post, he seemed to be more supportive. I don’t feel negative about NOM; I’m a member as well and would concider myself, by it’s offical definiton, one. However I don’t think that it’s been quite as helpful to my DH in working on a positive relationship with the church. It has really helped him through some rough spots though and it can be quite entertaining at times 
I think I’m realizing that working with someone who may have different ideas about their level of involvment in the church takes comprimise. I need to be understanding of my DH and where he is coming from just as much as he is trying to do the same for me.
I knew that coming on here would help me work throught this (we’ll I guess it’s a work in progress really)
Old-Timer wrote:Even the Church leadership has said numerous times that Church is secondary to family. It’s not implemented that way at the local level in lots of places, especially in places like cwald’s branch and others where able-bodied members are scarce, but it still is the ideal. Family first.
As a missionary, I’ll never forget this family we visited regularly. He was a former counselor in the Stake Presidency, and his total family was less active except his wife, who was semi-active.
He told us why it happened. He said that the prevailing attitude back in the 60’s was “Look after your Church responsibilities and the Lord will look after your family”. He confided that he felt that was the reason he lost everyone in the gospel in his family during the period he was a counselor in the SP. That for me was a warning about how you have to be on guard for what I call “local doctrine” dreamed up by leaders who are trying to get the most commitment to their organizations they can, through whatever means possible.
We had local doctrine here a while ago — “Don’t ever refuse a calling — just tell us your situation” — said a member of our Stake Presidency over and over again. Essentially, he was saying “Let ME decide where you serve. I might not call you based on your input, but utlimately, it’s MY decision where you serve”. I always rejected that philosophy. He also chastised as a body of priesthood for asking to be released, and ignored me completely after I was released from my HPGL calling when he installed the new HPGL — I sensed great disapproval that I had insisted they release me. To date, I believe he was simply acting for his own convenience. It’s frustrating and a bit of a hassle to find people who are willing to take on callings when person after person refuses, so he was trying to get people to agree to reduce his own inconvenience.
So, I think one needs to guard and enforce that “family first, Church second philosophy”. It can be frustrating for leaders, that’s for sure….but ultimately better for the Church as a whole if the Stake President Counselor above is a case in point.
SilentDawning wrote:So, I think one needs to guard and enforce that “family first, Church second philosophy”.
I hope we can do this. I think this is really what DH wants. I guess I still have some issues with braking away from what I think I “should” do (when it comes to my family as a whole)and moving onto what I want to do and think is best for my family.
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