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We have had a lot of discussion about the Church’s policy on Gay marriage & its affect on individual members & their families. Most of the discussion has been sympathetic.
The Church’s position seems to be that if a member really has a same sex attraction the only option is to live a celibate life.
Assuming they want to remain “active” in the Church. It is difficult for me to imagine how that could be an option.
There are times when I try to understand an opposing view by taking that view & trying to argue it. (Usually in my head.)
For those that don’t know me, I am 70+ yrs old, married 40+ yrs, have (3) married children, with (5) grandchildren.
I have friends in the Church who have children who are gay & have gone through hell with this policy & its consequences.
My question is: Is it possible to live a celibate life & feel fulfilled? Is it a viable option?
Anecdotally, yes. But likely to produce ‘fulfillment’ reliably for LGBT members at large? Not even close. In fact, the damage caused by people who attempt the celibacy or mixed-orientation marriage and fail in a heap of depression, anxiety, and self-loathing… That damage far outweighs the odd case where someone musters the faith to live a fulfilled celibate life.
The other problem is that it’s not just the celibate requirement- it’s also the offensive and condescending comments made by members about ‘the gays’ and their agenda.
After priesthood meeting a few years ago, I was sitting around with my brothers-in-law, and we started discussing the movie ‘The Imitation Game’ based on the true story of Alan Touring. One in-law immediately jumped in… “Oh, it’s crazy how strong the gay agenda is in this movie”. Normally I’m a very quiet passive person, but I felt my blood boil, and in a polite but firm reminded him that not even 100 years ago, we required gay people to face prison or castration, and how that is plain wrong regardless of anything else going on.
The worst part… I have a brother that I believe is gay, or at least ‘different’. Thankfully, he wasn’t in the room with us, but he’s been subjected to that type of BS from our family.
Gay people need protection, and it’s devastating when they are attacked unwittingly by those they look to for protection.
So, given all those factors, I believe that celibacy is a recipe for disaster, and we’ll someday look back in embarrassment.
Sorry, I dont know the answer. I dont know anyone personally who has had to live a celibate life so i have no personal examples. I just wanted to say I was thinking about this the other day, how they have to give up more for their religion than most people ever do. I can’t even imagine having to decide to choose the church over marrying someone you love. How often do people have to marry someone they’re not at all attracted to at all, or live a life of celibacy in order to remain a part of the church? Not many. They’re being asked to give up a huge part of life. I can’t even imagine the struggle. I really feel for them.
Minyan Man wrote:My question is: Is it possible to live a celibate life & feel fulfilled? Is it a viable option?
I think so but only if that is someone’s choice. Being LGBT isn’t the same thing as choosing a life of celibacy, neither is being single so long that you giving up the fight to find someone.
marty wrote:One in-law immediately jumped in… “Oh, it’s crazy how strong the gay agenda is in this movie”.
I readily admit that 15 years ago I had similar thoughts as your in-law. I’ve since changed quite a bit. I now look back on those days in embarrassment. I’ve had a change of heart, not brought about by debate or through force, but a change nonetheless. I try to forgive myself by thinking, “father, forgive me; for I knew not what I did.” Growth requires imperfections.
Always Thinking wrote:I can’t even imagine having to decide to choose the church over marrying someone you love. How often do people have to marry someone they’re not at all attracted to at all, or live a life of celibacy in order to remain a part of the church? Not many. They’re being asked to give up a huge part of life. I can’t even imagine the struggle. I really feel for them.
A few other religions require clerical celibacy but in those cases people aren’t born an Eastern Orthodox bishop (for example), by following a very specific path living a celibate life is something they are choosing with eyes wide open.
Yes you can but you should not have to. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I find it interesting that, as a culture, we have no problem expecting straight people to live a celibate life, but we do not hold LGBTQ to that same standard. We expect LGBTQ to leave the church .. And we are surprised when they stay. Personally, I find it horrific that the church culture sees spinsterhood as a better option than a mixed-religion household. They are essentially stating that it is better that children not even be born than to be born “out of the convenant”. I wish the church would promote same-religion marriage but suggest that mixed-religion marriage/children/family is a better option than spinsterhood.
Yes, it is possible for some individuals; it is not healthy for entire groups of people – and we understand and acknowledge that simple fact when it comes to “us”. The natural (wo)men feel fine imposing restrictions on others they wouldn’t impose on themselves, and we are far too natural in this case. Some of he double-standard differences with regard to same-sex relationships have no been mentioned already, but amateurparent’s example is the one I reference most often. I also cite how quick we are to condemn the Catholic Church’s insistence on abstinence – and even blame it for much of the sexual abuse issues within the clergy over the years – then turn around and enforce our own celibacy demand.
Fwiw, the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox leaders just signed a joint statement condemning same-sex marriage, which means their official doctrine for homosexuals also is celibacy. Pope Francis’ words have been gentler than Elder Packer’s, for example – but the outcome is the same.
There has been periods of my life when celibacy has been “thrust upon me” (as they say). I know men in my ward who have never married & now approach retirement age.
I assume there are women in the ward living under the same conditions.
I don’t know anyone who has been damaged because of it.
For example, my wife & I have been celibate for the 10+ years because of health issues.
I miss being intimate with her. By intimate, I mean all of the things you do together without having sex.
Holding hands, having intimate talks, going on dates, flirting, etc. (yes, you can flirt at 70).
When I got married, I thought we would be close physically & spiritually for all of our adult life.
It doesn’t always work that way. Because I am expected to be monogamous & celibate, it never crossed my mind
that I would be unfaithful to my wife or my faith.
For me, the biggest challenge for any gay member is: there is no hope that I could be intimate or sexual in this life.
Minyan Man wrote:We have had a lot of discussion about the Church’s policy on Gay marriage & its affect on individual members & their families.
Most of the discussion has been sympathetic.
The Church’s position seems to be that if a member really has a same sex attraction the only option is to live a celibate life.
Assuming they want to remain “active” in the Church. It is difficult for me to imagine how that could be an option.
There are times when I try to understand an opposing view by taking that view & trying to argue it. (Usually in my head.)
For those that don’t know me, I am 70+ yrs old, married 40+ yrs, have (3) married children, with (5) grandchildren.
I have friends in the Church who have children who are gay & have gone through hell with this policy & its consequences.
My question is: Is it possible to live a celibate life & feel fulfilled? Is it a viable option?
I won’t go into details — been there, done that — but I live a celibate life as a married person, and have done so 15 of my 22 years of marriage, with it started on the wedding night and lasting for 10 years, with a brief period of semi-normalcy, and then return to the celibate life style (not by choice, I might add, the control of the situation lies elsewhere).
Is it possible to be fulfilled? As you get older, yes. I am over 50 now and seem to do fine without it. Nature’s anesthetic (don’t mind my spelling) takes over after a certain age and the drives ease up. So does the realization you just don’t look that great anymore. which lessens desire to put someone else through looking at you…
But my twenties, thirties and forties were sheer hell with it. It’s like living with a broken heart whenever you think about it. It can lead to a desire for emotional affairs (I had one, that never went anywhere and was likely all in my imagination), and exposes you to risk of breaking the law of chastity out of frustration. There was a time when I got really negative about life in general and people close to me (non-spousal) mentioned it. I realized it was really effecting me, having all the responsibilities of marriage and none of the physical blessings. There can also be guilt with it.
I got through it, so it’s possible, but fulfilling? I would think not. I find it hard to imagine myself in a sexually fulfilling relationship now. It’s not part of my life any more.
Ray made a comment that helped me get through it years ago — he said the situation I’m in is like being married to someone who has any kind of a medical issue. It put it in perspective. There are people with health or other problems that prevent them from having a suitable partner, or that prevent sex due to their partner’s disability — and I realized I was in the same boat as those people although I was perfectly healthy. The change in perspective seemed to help me feel less “speciial” or “wronged” in the situation, and that helped.
So, my answer is “No”, until you get older and it stops mattering….
IMO it isn’t celibacy that is the biggest issue. It’s lack of intimacy, isolation, ostracization, loneliness, and having no companionship or family. Quote:IMO it isn’t celibacy that is the biggest issue. It’s lack of intimacy, isolation, ostracization, loneliness, and having no companionship or family.
This. Absolutely this.
Man was not meant to be alone applies to far more than just sex.
Old-Timer wrote:Quote:IMO it isn’t celibacy that is the biggest issue. It’s lack of intimacy, isolation, ostracization, loneliness, and having no companionship or family.
This. Absolutely this.
Man was not meant to be alone applies to far more than just sex.
I believe physical and spiritual intimacy are reciprocal. The help each other. Having one without the other can be very uncomfortable. The difference between the situation I have presented, and the plight of gay members is different — I recognize. You have to add ostracization, and no family to the mix. At least I haven’t experienced those two deficits…
I believe celibacy is possible, but highly improbable by choice. I have said here many times before how I dislike that gays cannot have sexual fulfillment in the church’s eyes. While sexuality may be part of the natural man, it more than that. turinturambar wrote:IMO it isn’t celibacy that is the biggest issue. It’s lack of intimacy, isolation, ostracization, loneliness, and having no companionship or family.
I like this clarification on the issue.I also know there are certain circumstances when people seem to have to have situations in life they must deal with…their “lot in life”. But we don’t have to take a “lot” in life for no reason. That is what makes this issue difficult in my view.
While celibacy can be done, it doesn’t feel right to me to have the only reason it must be done for some people be…”Because that is what the church leaders say”.
That can be a factor to listen to those I have faith are prophets to our society doing what they believe God is directing them to do…but personal revelation would have to provide me a better answer or more reason…otherwise…the choice to sacrifice unnecessarily is for nothing. I think that is what many people come to realize, and so they just leave the church.
I think some choose to stay in the church, live celibate, and wait for the change they hope will come.
Years ago, the church had a position that sex was for having babies…period. Any form a birth control was consider, and spoken about, as serious sin. I’m not making this up. The solution if you were not going to have children?……celibacy. I think the church leadership feels that celibacy is a quite viable and acceptable choice, not only for those who are gay, but for those who never got married in heterosexual relationships, or even for those who don’t have the chance to marry in the faith either (as AP pointed out).
I don’t know the personal feelings of the leadership…but I believe their collective opinion is that celibacy isn’t that big of a problem.
My opinion is based on years of reading statements from the GAs, and trying to harmonize what they have said over decades on this subject.
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