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Always Thinking wrote:
Does it ever bother any of you who keep your faith crisis quiet that you’re kind of living a lie? Sometimes I feel like I’m so fake. My mom is my best friend besides my husband but I haven’t even shared my faith crisis with her because I know her and how she’ll worry about my soul. She also is very happy that me and my 15 year old sister are close, but sometimes I wonder if she would still be happy about it if she knew I was struggling. I try not to influence my sister negatively but it’s hard when we’re close so I’ve suggested music to her before with bad words and I’ve sometimes expressed my not so orthodox views with her and things like that. I try my best to keep most of it to myself though. But sometimes I worry that my parents will somehow find out that I struggled with the church farther down the road, like say if I leave the church or something, and my sister is struggling too, that they may blame me for influencing her. Since I was so TBM growing up, I worry that that’s what my parents expect is my influence on her right now but it’s not. So anyways, my questions are, do you ever feel like you’re living a lie? How do you get past it? And also, how do you know if you’re a bad influence, church wise, on younger siblings? Is it bad to not be a good church influence? I know i’m a good support system for her but I don’t think i’m the best church support and idk what to think about that.
Yes, it’s a big deal. It’s why some Mo’s leave the church immediately after faith crisis, even though they might otherwise enjoy the church and view it the way I and others here do, but they feel so inauthentic that they can’t do it. This is a big part of why I feel so passionate about blogging and publicizing my message, to create more space for alternative views and allow people to feel more authentic.
People only live lies if they are lying to people. Tact and caring concern are not dishonest. I am not a literal believer about quite a few things, but I am fully active – even serving in public callings regularly. There is no lie or deception in that, since I never lie to anyone. I also don’t hide many of my heterodox beliefs; I just know how to frame them in non-threatening ways.
Think about this:
By saying you are living a lie, you are implying there is only one type of acceptable Mormon. If you reject that premise, even if there is cultural pressure to believe it, the issue of lying disappears completely. If you become at peace with who you are within the broader community, lying isn’t an issue. If you also learn to use “tribal language” to explain your beliefs, most people don’t care about the fact that you see some or many things differently.
Seriously, there are many thousands of active members who aren’t orthodox members but who aren’t living a lie.
On Own Now wrote:JS said that the catalyst that started it all was that in the midst of struggles, he came across a statement that said: “If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God…”.
For my own part, in the midst of my own struggles, I came across a statement: “Family secrets are not good”. In my case, I didn’t read that in the bible, I was told it by my psychologist. For me, it was the catalyst to begin to get my life back. And what I found was that all the things I was so afraid of were much less painful than the living in fear of them had been.
For those who decide to come clean with family/friends, let me say two things:
– What you believe and what you believe in are far far far more important than what you don’t believe. Never confuse the two. Don’t let yourself be defined by what you do not believe. When you are ready to start telling loved ones, be prepared to tell them what you now believe, rather than focusing on what you no longer believe.
– Be very careful not to explain yourself in terms that are contrasting with another person’s faith. I see it so often and it’s like watching a train wreck in slow motion. For example, don’t say, “I don’t believe JS was a prophet because of the Kinderhook Plates.” Immediately that puts the other person on the defensive. Intended or not, that statement is an attack on another person’s faith. And it almost always escalates… “and the ban thing, and polygamy, and how we treat gay people, and three hours of church, and white shirts, and no crosses… and and and…”. As I said before, I never ever ever have a conversation with any person where I expound on reasons why I believe what I believe. I just say I’m not a believer and then I focus on positive and uplifting things as much as I can. When I recently told a HPGL that I wasn’t a believer any more, I also said that I am grateful for my upbringing in the Church and I don’t have an agenda and I hope to keep attending and being part of the ward family.
Excellent OON. I safely navigate by focusing on what I do believe. The church teaches the gospel of Jesus Christ (or Doctrine of Christ). I believe in that, and little else matters. As Nibbler pointed out, I didn’t talk much about my faith before my transition. I wasn’t one to get up in testimony meeting, and actually disliked being forced to do so every third month when I was in the bishopric. Nothing has really changed, but I’m not in the bishopric. In the last two years since I returned to activity I have been up in F&TM exactly 0 times. My talks do include testimony – of Jesus Christ. What I’m trying to say is that I don’t feel like I am living a lie. Nobody is ever totally honest and open with anyone else (including our spouses), we all have those rooms in our hearts, sanctuaries safe and sound, where no one else has ever been or ever will be. There is no need on my part to open those chamber doors. While most people in my ward know I had a faith crisis and transition and they know I didn’t come to church for a long time, they also know I give talks and speak of God’s love and that I believe in Christ. They know I teach lessons where I do the same thing. They know I will speak up when I think someone is being disparaged for their beliefs just because they don’t agree with them and that I won’t let them talk about other churches from the point of view of how much better we are than they are – and I’m not the only one. I don’t know what any of them believe about the BoM or JS and have no expectations of them as far as beliefs go – likewise I see no indication that they have any such expectation that I tell them every little detail of what I believe.
ETA: Ray was typing at the same time I was, and I endorse what he says.
churchistrue wrote:Always Thinking wrote:Does it ever bother any of you who keep your faith crisis quiet that you’re kind of living a lie? Sometimes I feel like I’m so fake. My mom is my best friend besides my husband but I haven’t even shared my faith crisis with her because I know her and how she’ll worry about my soul. She also is very happy that me and my 15 year old sister are close, but sometimes I wonder if she would still be happy about it if she knew I was struggling. I try not to influence my sister negatively but it’s hard when we’re close so I’ve suggested music to her before with bad words and I’ve sometimes expressed my not so orthodox views with her and things like that. I try my best to keep most of it to myself though. But sometimes I worry that my parents will somehow find out that I struggled with the church farther down the road, like say if I leave the church or something, and my sister is struggling too, that they may blame me for influencing her. Since I was so TBM growing up, I worry that that’s what my parents expect is my influence on her right now but it’s not. So anyways, my questions are, do you ever feel like you’re living a lie? How do you get past it? And also, how do you know if you’re a bad influence, church wise, on younger siblings? Is it bad to not be a good church influence? I know i’m a good support system for her but I don’t think i’m the best church support and idk what to think about that.
Yes, it’s a big deal. It’s why some Mo’s leave the church immediately after faith crisis, even though they might otherwise enjoy the church and view it the way I and others here do, but they feel so inauthentic that they can’t do it. This is a big part of why I feel so passionate about blogging and publicizing my message, to create more space for alternative views and allow people to feel more authentic.
You are right CIS, and that is pretty much why I didn’t come to church for a long time. In my 20/20 Jedi hindsight I was wrong. “I don’t know the future but the past keeps getting clearer every day.”
Old-Timer wrote:People only live lies if they are lying to people. Tact and caring concern are not dishonest.
I am not a literal believer about quite a few things, but I am fully active – even serving in public callings regularly. There is no lie or deception in that, since I never lie to anyone. I also don’t hide many of my heterodox beliefs; I just know how to frame them in non-threatening ways.
Think about this:
By saying you are living a lie, you are implying there is only one type of acceptable Mormon. If you reject that premise, even if there is cultural pressure to believe it, the issue of lying disappears completely. If you become at peace with who you are within the broader community, lying isn’t an issue. If you also learn to use “tribal language” to explain your beliefs, most people don’t care about the fact that you see some or many things differently.
Seriously, there are many thousands of active members who aren’t orthodox members but who aren’t living a lie.
Good response. I like that. I’m still figuring out how to speak and teach in church in an unorthodox style that doesn’t cause others to lose faith.
DarkJedi wrote:You are right CIS, and that is pretty much why I didn’t come to church for a long time. In my 20/20 Jedi hindsight I was wrong. “I don’t know the future but the past keeps getting clearer every day.”
It was bought to my attention I may not have been as clear as I would have liked in the above statement. You’re all supposed to be mind readers
My first mistake was not recognizing that the church is not all or nothing and we’re not all gingerbread people. As others have pointed out, there are a wide variety of beliefs at church and we mostly don’t know it because nobody really shares all of their beliefs. While it might seem like we’re all in lockstep sometimes, nothing could be farther from the truth. (Really really!)
The other mistake was staying away so long. Breaks are fine and can be very beneficial. Ten years was too long. There were other factors involved with that time period, but there’s a huge difference in a short break for one’s own sanity and staying away for an extended period of time.
Old-Timer wrote:By saying you are living a lie, you are implying there is only one type of acceptable Mormon. If you reject that premise, even if there is cultural pressure to believe it, the issue of lying disappears completely.
The crushing cultural pressure is there because of the church’s silence on many key points. It can look on as people are “squeezed out” or “switched off” (I think those are Richard Bushman’s expressions), or it can rewrite its curriculum and rework its rhetoric to
convinceus that they welcome more diverse beliefs. I’ve been so disappointed with the speed of this whole thing. Time flies. My kids are making decisions now. They have shorter lifetimes of Mormon experience weighting them down to the church, and are looking down the road at much longer lives than mine of dissonance with official church teachings. I understand, Ann. My kids are 14-28 and are facing the same thing. Ann wrote:Old-Timer wrote:By saying you are living a lie, you are implying there is only one type of acceptable Mormon. If you reject that premise, even if there is cultural pressure to believe it, the issue of lying disappears completely.
The crushing cultural pressure is there because of the church’s silence on many key points. It can look on as people are “squeezed out” or “switched off” (I think those are Richard Bushman’s expressions), or it can rewrite its curriculum and rework its rhetoric to
convinceus that they welcome more diverse beliefs. I’ve been so disappointed with the speed of this whole thing. Time flies. My kids are making decisions now. They have shorter lifetimes of Mormon experience weighting them down to the church, and are looking down the road at much longer lives than mine of dissonance with official church teachings. I remember John Dehlin being asked about the church commercials that portrayed a lot of different people (skateboarders, people of different races etcetera) indicating they are unique and “I am a Mormon”. He made the comment that it “wasn’t that way” to the press. I’m sure that got him in hot water.
But it IS that way. All you have to do is look at the pyramid picture of all the GA’s in the conference edition to see that diversity is not alive and well in the upper leadership strata. We are a Caucasian, American church.
Yes I feel like I am living a lie all the time and it bothers me a lot!!!!!!!!!!! I lost my faith a long time ago but it really hit me hard about 1 year ago . As I negotiated my path of a faith crisis I realized a lot about myself and the faith. I tried to come out to other people and even resign but none of that happened it was all silenced quickly !! Nobody wants to hear it not even my spouse. She tells me she cannot/will not be married to a non believer . I know at some point I will have to make choice (not ready for that yet ) Just because I have been quiet for the past few months does not make me a believer. I believe in Jesus Christ and that is all I need for now but living this lie about living and loving Mormonism sucks !!!! I don’t believe in Joseph Smith anymore than the man in the moon or the current Prophet and apostles . My lie eats at me when I attend church , shake hands etc etc etc . I have never been a guy that gets up and likes to speak so I avoid it like the plague even saying NO to the 1st & 2nd counselors when the try to assign a talk to me. I like the church and the clean living but hey you can have that anywhere that part is up to each one of us. I hope I can get understanding at not criticism at some point but for now peace escapes me on this issue. We are not a Caucasian, American church; we are a mostly non-Caucasian, non-American church with a Caucasian, American top leadership (at the apostle level). Even the Qs70 are more and more non-Caucasian, non-American on an on-going basis. We are nowhere near where I would like us to be (ethnically, racially, [biological] sexually, orientationally, etc.), but we are moving that way right now, except at the very top.
Old-Timer wrote:We are not a Caucasian, American church; we are a mostly non-Caucasian, non-American church with a Caucasian, American top leadership (at the apostle level). Even the Qs70 are more and more non-Caucasian, non-American on an on-going basis.
We are nowhere near where I would like us to be (ethnically, racially, [biological] sexually, orientationally, etc.), but we are moving that way right now, except at the very top.
That is what I meant — based on the leadership at the top, that is what we are policy-wise. You can scream that we embrace diversity but until you start putting diverse leaders at the top, we won’t be truly diverse. I recognize we are diverse from a membership perspective, but certainly not from a leadership perspective. Therefore, we have not achieved a penetrable diversity.
If we used rules used in diversity programs, our top leadership’s ethnic background should be in the same proportion as the overall membership.
Wouldn’t that be a change!
jgaskill wrote:Yes I feel like I am living a lie all the time and it bothers me a lot!!!!!!!!!!! I lost my faith a long time ago but it really hit me hard about 1 year ago . As I negotiated my path of a faith crisis I realized a lot about myself and the faith. I tried to come out to other people and even resign but none of that happened it was all silenced quickly !! Nobody wants to hear it not even my spouse. She tells me she cannot/will not be married to a non believer . I know at some point I will have to make choice (not ready for that yet ) Just because I have been quiet for the past few months does not make me a believer. I believe in Jesus Christ and that is all I need for now but living this lie about living and loving Mormonism sucks !!!! I don’t believe in Joseph Smith anymore than the man in the moon or the current Prophet and apostles . My lie eats at me when I attend church , shake hands etc etc etc . I have never been a guy that gets up and likes to speak so I avoid it like the plague even saying NO to the 1st & 2nd counselors when the try to assign a talk to me. I like the church and the clean living but hey you can have that anywhere that part is up to each one of us. I hope I can get understanding at not criticism at some point but for now peace escapes me on this issue.
Just refuse those things that bring you angst. I do that all the time and I’m comfortable with it now. No angst…talk here. If you’re like me you’ll end up with many thousands of posts.
I have been in the process( because I do Love the church) of becoming an unorthodox believer and kudos to the Brother that has created “Churchistrue” That website means a lot to me and I am slowly coming to terms of being a non literal believer. Even though I do not believe the BOM was translated from the gold plates that doesn’t mean I don’t think it is inspired by God . I believe it is a work of joseph smith but like I say inspired by God to bring us closer and to believe in Jesus Christ . I see many things in the church like this so I am coming to terms with this and although my wife is a literal believer I think I can make my way of thinking work for me and remain in the church. Church is true is Great and I believe it has helped many people like me remain in the church , keep up the good work PLease !!!!!!!!!! Old-Timer wrote:By saying you are living a lie, you are implying there is only one type of acceptable Mormon. If you reject that premise, even if there is cultural pressure to believe it, the issue of lying disappears completely. If you become at peace with who you are within the broader community, lying isn’t an issue. If you also learn to use “tribal language” to explain your beliefs, most people don’t care about the fact that you see some or many things differently.
I like how Ray put this, and it captures how I feel.While I have questions and look for answers, it is not a lie to just keep thoughts to myself while I’m figuring things out. If I say I believe Joseph Smith sat in front of golden pages and translated an ancient language into English word for word…and I don’t believe he did that…then that would be living a lie.
But if I state Joseph was a prophet (meanwhile thinking I don’t think we understand how revelation works and the Book of Mormon is not a literal history) I am not living a lie. I am living a complex life full of paradox. I filter thoughts, like all other areas of my life.
I have found I don’t need to bring up some things very much at all. But when point blank asked about something, I answer.
I’m just not point blank asked anything hardly ever. And I live my life according to what is important to me. That is not duplicitous or living contrary to what I believe.
Other mormons do it too. There will be many who watch R-rated movies…they don’t tell others about it. IT isn’t a big deal to them, and they don’t see a need to talk to others about it. Even if it was pointed out that it probably isn’t the best thing to do, as long as they don’t care to talk about it, it doesn’t impact anyone. They filter it and have privacy to their lives.
So do I.
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