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The following posted on By Common Consent today, and it relates directly to more than one conversation we have been having lately here: “Local Initiative and Authority” – ( http://bycommonconsent.com/2010/06/28/local-initiative-and-authority/ There are two quotes from a talk by Boyd K. Packer that might surprise most of you, as well as links to two talks by M. Russell Ballard that are fascinating. I want to excerpt the quotes from Elder Packer initially and simply add my own “Amen” to them:
Quote:‘There is the natural tendency to look at those who are sustained to presiding positions, to consider them to be higher and of more value in the Church or to their families than an ordinary member. Somehow we feel they are worth more to the Lord than are we. It just does not work that way!’
Quote:‘[The Church] is carried upon the shoulders of worthy members living ordinary lives among ordinary families, guided by the Holy Ghost and the Light of Christ, which is in them.’
Great concept, but it is one thing to talk about service projects, social programs and Sunday School topics on a local level, but what about letting local wards and stakes have more control over some of the tithing dollars that are donated. That would be real control that I do not see coming anytime soon. I hope it doesn’t happen, Cadence, since I don’t want rich wards and poor wards being re-established in the Church. Equalizing the funding distribution in the Church probably is my favorite change within the institutional Church in my lifetime – along with the equalizing of full-time mission cost. What it has done for inner-city, rural and third-world congregations is priceless, imo. As gently as I can say this, I also find your quick dismissal of the actions that constitute the meat of the Gospel and your immediate focus on tithing with regard to this post instructive.
Quote:When considering at the words of leaders, members of the church tend to read suggestions as directions and directions as commandments
Uh-huh — exactly. I’ve loosened up on that considerably through our discussions here. I no longer will see Bishopric statements as commandments, although I’ll still consider them, and sometimes, even support them even if I don’t necessarily agree with them.
I have to admit, though, the top-down nature of our Mormon culture DOES hurt us at the local level. I once had an innovative missionary Sunday idea. I had buy-in from many on the Ward PEC through informal discussions about the idea. The Ward mission loved it, and so did the missionaries. The Bishop quashed it because “it wasn’t the program of the Church”. I left the meeting frustrated because it meant we were left with nothing but worn out talks about missionary work on Missionary Sunday. Nothing new, nothing exciting, and what I was proposing may well have been effective.
Fast forward 6 months. I’m at a social event with some LDS people from another Stake. They explained a missionary Sunday they were going to implement — and guess what — it was the same concept I’d proposed to our Bishopric in PEC previously. Yes, there were slight differences, but the big concept was exactly the same as the one I’d suggested. Our Bishop’s fixation with the customary way of doing things squelched innovation, and definitely enthusiasm and innovation.
I remembered leaving that PEC with the statement I heard Einstein quoted “problems won’t be solved by using the same level of thinking that created the problem in the first place”.
I agree with Cadence somewhat however — it disturbs me that only 5% of the Ward’s donations actually make back into its own budget to make programs good. I think more local control over finances donated would be worthwhile. But that’s another issue for another day.
Cadence wrote:Great concept, but it is one thing to talk about service projects, social programs and Sunday School topics on a local level, but what about letting local wards and stakes have more control over some of the tithing dollars that are donated. That would be real control that I do not see coming anytime soon.
I’m old enough by a long ways to remember when budget was something that had to be raised by each unit in order to fund the ward or branches programs. Along with that came quorum and RS dues on top of building fund, tithing and fast offering. Elder Packer was my second mission president and quipped at a zone conference once that LDS stood for “lay down the silver”. Anyway the local funding meant that some wards sent their youth to Disneyland and some were lucky to be able to send kid’s to girl’s and scout camp. I was a clerk when they changed and determined budget allotment based on sacrament meeting attendance and tithing faithfulness. Some didn’t like it at first but it wasn’t long before pretty much everyone realized the wisdom in the change. The field is level and everyone makes due with what they have which is fine with me.
GBSmith wrote:Cadence wrote:Great concept, but it is one thing to talk about service projects, social programs and Sunday School topics on a local level, but what about letting local wards and stakes have more control over some of the tithing dollars that are donated. That would be real control that I do not see coming anytime soon.
I’m old enough by a long ways to remember when budget was something that had to be raised by each unit in order to fund the ward or branches programs. Along with that came quorum and RS dues on top of building fund, tithing and fast offering. Elder Packer was my second mission president and quipped at a zone conference once that LDS stood for “lay down the silver”. Anyway the local funding meant that some wards sent their youth to Disneyland and some were lucky to be able to send kid’s to girl’s and scout camp. I was a clerk when they changed and determined budget allotment based on sacrament meeting attendance and tithing faithfulness. Some didn’t like it at first but it wasn’t long before pretty much everyone realized the wisdom in the change. The field is level and everyone makes due with what they have which is fine with me.
The equalization of budget payments doesn’t bother me — it’s the fact that so little of it actually comes back to the Wards at all.
SD – but now so much of it does go to the branches and twigs and third-world countries. I’ve lived and served in those types of areas, and the money that doesn’t go back to the wards but instead goes to other units and to the construction of smaller, closer temples in a blessing of unspeakable degree to many members. I’ll sacrifice a few activities in my ward in order to allow others to have generally what I have. I understand the frustration. I really do. I just see the big picture differently, especially since I’ve been on the receiving end of the change.
Old-Timer wrote:SD – but now so much of it does go to the branches and twigs and third-world countries. I’ve lived and served in those types of areas, and the money that doesn’t go back to the wards but instead goes to other units and to the construction of smaller, closer temples in a blessing of unspeakable degree to many members. I’ll sacrifice a few activities in my ward in order to allow others to have generally what I have.
I understand the frustration. I really do. I just see the big picture differently, especially since I’ve been on the receiving end of the change.
Ray, this is all good. We SHOULD be sending the money to third world countries and poor wards. However, where I think the frustration comes from is the money that is being spent on “corporation/business” ventures. I don’t vocally complain about the whole temple square mall deal – but – I understand why some do. Why is our “tithing money” and “stock dividends” being spent that way – and then we go and fire all the ward janitors, when we know that church has the money to pay? I know the answers that I’m going hear back – in fact I don’t really want an answer. I’m just pointing out why some people think 5% back to the local wards is NOT OKAY.
Quote:The following posted on By Common Consent today, and it relates directly to more than one conversation we have been having lately here: “Local Initiative and Authority” – (
http://bycommonconsent.com/2010/06/28/l … authority/). I recommend it highly. In fact, I would like those who want to comment in this thread to read the entire post by Norbert first – then return to this thread to discuss it. If you want to, feel free to quote from the post and discuss what Norbert says there.Opps! Okay, I’m going to read it and get back on task. Sorry about the tithing remark.
😳 Old-Timer wrote:SD – but now so much of it does go to the branches and twigs and third-world countries. I’ve lived and served in those types of areas, and the money that doesn’t go back to the wards but instead goes to other units and to the construction of smaller, closer temples in a blessing of unspeakable degree to many members. I’ll sacrifice a few activities in my ward in order to allow others to have generally what I have.
I understand the frustration. I really do. I just see the big picture differently, especially since I’ve been on the receiving end of the change.
This may well be true, but from your explanation it sounds like the money is a scarce resource, so to support less fortunate units, the wards in developed nations must make a sacrifice. I’m not convinced that’s so — based on another newspaper article where I read the Church is getting into real estate development in Florida, for example, as well as their significant business interests (many cerainly NOT low risk), I don’t see that as the case — the Church is awash in cash right now.
There are times when I feel like the financial engine of the Church — the tithe and fast-offering payers — are over-used with all the financial demands on us — in the name of sacrifice and covenant-keeping.
I think part of the frustration comes from being in the dark about where the funds go. Also, I think my last Bishop was out in left field when it came to money matters, plus a couple experiences in my personal Church history over non-welfare money matters, AND the way I see Church welfare funds disbursed — all these things bother me. Perhaps I’m in an oversensitive period about it right now, but it REALLY does bother me.
I also think all the cash thrown off from business ventures should be used to assist with making the lives of members better.
You don’t have to respond necessarily; I’m making my own adjustments about this and have devoted a significant amount of time and thought and research to tithing and fast offering payments. And I’m trying to write off my Bishop’s attitudes toward money as simply bad judgment based on his experience as a worn-out, three-time Bishop. However, I do feel quite a bit of angst about money matters when it comes to the Church. At the Ward level, I’ve felt more than once that initiatives that improve home teaching, activity rates, etcetera are only important if they don’t cost money. As soon as there is a need for funds, the barriers go up, and initiatives die on the table. And these barrier-like attitudes that occur when there is a need for funds seem at loggerheads with statements in the scriputres about the worth of a single soul, etcetera.
I better stop as the more I think about it, the more it entrenches my concerns.
I’m not going to argue. I just see it differently. That happens – and it’s fine. 
Old-Timer wrote:I’m not going to argue. I just see it differently. That happens – and it’s fine.
Hopefully you take comfort in the fact that I’m doing my best to deal with it, and that I’m not expecting the Church to change its attitudes or habits one iota in return…..
Absolutely, SD – and I have no problem with the fact that we see it differently. Old-Timer wrote:I hope it doesn’t happen, Cadence, since I don’t want rich wards and poor wards being re-established in the Church. Equalizing the funding distribution in the Church probably is my favorite change within the institutional Church in my lifetime – along with the equalizing of full-time mission cost. What it has done for inner-city, rural and third-world congregations is priceless, imo.
Never said I wanted all the funds to stay local. The church obviously needs resources for its projects around the world. But it certainly would not hurt for the local members to have some kind of say in how some percentage of the funds were spent locally. Also I would not agree that taking funds from a wealthy area and giving it to a poor area is necessarily always a good approach. Sounds nice and like the Christian thing to do but sometimes it is better to teach a man to fish than give a man a fish.
Old-Timer wrote:As gently as I can say this, I also find your quick dismissal of the actions that constitute the meat of the Gospel and your immediate focus on tithing with regard to this post instructive.
What makes these things meat? Meat without teeth to chew is not very valuable to the average person.
Hmm maybe I’m off topic and this won’t be an answer to the big picture nature of the topic. However the way to get around alot of the budget shortfalls is to do things outside of the chuch. Example: Our scout troop was weak at best with little enthusiasm and poor equipment. The solution or resolution was a two of the ward’s bretheren who were better off members had a stockpile of equipment for camping etc. I certainly would not donate these items to the ward, niether did they, but have them on hand for the scouts to use. By doing this the brothers were able to ensure the equipment was there for use but able to keep a hand on misuse.
I think if more members did this they might see thier money go where it is needed more often. helping a struggling family with a Nintendo at Christmas will never be done by the Church but doing so might help that family have a better Christmas.
A helping hand here and there by those that are able might make the difference between dissaffection and loneliness by showing a private example of what good members can do for eachother.
Maybe we can’t always do this but it can help those that struggle. My family was very poor growing up and after my father had just spent months getting our car working, it was stolen and totalled. Our family was pretty inactive, long story short our visiting teachers learned of this and sold my father a used station wagon for a dollar. It was one of the examples of kindness shown by someone more fortunate. My father years later did the same thing and helped repair the vehicle for a family in our ward.
Even in the kingdom of God private “welfare” to our brothers and sisters can make a bigger difference than the Curch welfare program.
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