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OK,…. This should be an interesting topic. I’m divorced after a long marriage that didn’t work out,…and I find that loneliness is,…well, it SUCKS! It sucks BAD BAD BAD!
I am making peace with it,….slowly, but sometimes when I come home to my empty apartment (my children are mostly grown and married), the silence can be stifling.
Of course I know the answers most people give: “You just need to plan things to help people” — “Join a club” — “Make new friends”….etc. So, please don’t bombard me with more advice on that stuff–OK?…I’ve heard it all already. And, yes, those are good ideas.
But, what I have found is a yearning for intimacy on a spiritual, emotional, and yes,..physical level, that can’t really be met by those other means. I have read also that for women, being alone may be easier to cope with than men (don’t beat me up on this statement,..Laura Brotherson said it,…beat her), and if that is the case, wow. But, it doesn’t help me much.
It is because of my predicament that my heart just goes out to those who are single out there, and especially to the LDS LGBTQ community who, if they live their religion, may find themselves alone in many ways that are not easily dealt with.
I have no idea where this discussion will end up,..but one last thing I want to say. Many people who are MARRIED even have to deal with this loneliness. How sad is that!? For a long time, I did, and felt my chances would be better if I moved on, which I am working on now (so I don’t see myself alone forever).
But I want to know comments about this from others. It seems that “singleness” is a challenge for the LDS faith. Am I wrong in this assessment? And, what are others feeling about this topic?
I love watching nature shows and they often talk about how some animals really like the group and others only come together for a few moments to get it on. I was watching “Interstellar” (spoiler alert) and when the main character found himself all alone – possibly forever it really hit me that to be alone (truly completely alone) forever would be pure hell. I would want to kill myself.
So it is with some animals. They get depressed when they are not with their kind. I feel God made us that way.
Before you even brought it up I was thinking about the gay members and how they are asked to essentially live alone with no real close friendships. That has got to be hell. When someone mentioned that, it was the point where I fully embraced that I feel the church’s stand on this issue is in error.
I have no great words of wisdom, but keep working on it. I do feel you can find some happiness.
LH,…I wonder sometimes how much the GAs know about this topic…but perhaps they do know something. I remember, for example, when Elder Scott’s wife died. You could see something in him die with that. But, those guys probably have assurance (as in second witness type stuff) that they have it made when they die. Do LGBTQ folks have those assurances? Are they somehow going to have a magic wand waved and all of the sudden they are heterosexual with a spouse hand picked for their eternal bliss and fulfillment? Many Stage 3 folks seem to think this is the case–I’ve met some. But, for the life of me, I have never heard a real doctrine taught and certainly not endorsed, that such changes will happen. Mitch Mayne in California feels he is VERY gay, and that will not necessarily change for him,..and somehow he has made peace with that. But MANY MANY others haven’t.
Can you imagine the utter turmoil and churning wormy hell that such loneliness that seems to be eternal can be?
Look, I might be speaking out of turn here, and if I am, I sincerely am sorry. I am just thinking about this topic this evening because I am in a very quiet place, alone right now,…and it isn’t cool.
More thoughts?
It would be hell for me. Which is why I sympathize greatly with people who choose celibacy on behalf of their religion, be it LGBT folk, singles, divorcees or catholic priests. Yet the church holds a carrot out in front of them offering promises if they endure to the end. My bishop believes LGBTs will become Hetero in the hereafter. I don’t blame him for thinking that way, I couldn’t do the job of bishop unless I believed that we were offering real hope to those who are keeping their covenants. Curious R4H, and you don’t have to answer publicly, but what are your thoughts on fornication as a divorced, faith transitioning person? Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Rob4Hope wrote:OK,….
Many people who are MARRIED even have to deal with this loneliness. How sad is that!? For a long time, I did, and felt my chances would be better if I moved on, which I am working on now (so I don’t see myself alone forever).
But I want to know comments about this from others. It seems that “singleness” is a challenge for the LDS faith. Am I wrong in this assessment? And, what are others feeling about this topic?
Yep. I feel alone in my marriage at times. I know the feelings. You get used to the other person’s thought and behavior patterns, and they become predictable. I know that if I mention something on my mind more than once to my spouse, my spouse will say “you already told me that”, effectively shutting down the conversation. So, much of my inner life goes unexpressed even in marriage. And often, she mistakes my sharing of a detail twice as repetition, when in fact, the second time is an introduction to an expansion of the previous comment based on new information.
And of course, I understand the lack of physical intimacy problem.
I don’t have much of an answer to this. I do think that exposing yourself to a lot of new people may help you run into someone who fills the ache of loneliness.
I’m not a great one to talk to about this, because I have often thought that if I do become single, I would probably not get married again. Part of me does not see the point — perhaps loneliness will fix that…
But I was single until I was in my late, late twenties, and know the ache of being alone. The period from when I was 25 to 28 was full of that deafening quiet when I would come home. Even being in a crowd can be lonely when you don’t have a close relationship with anyone in that crowd….
But one thing I never underestimate is the power of life to change a person’s mind, and for life to surprise you with someone that can help you feel fulfilled again. I leave that possibility open…
startpoor wrote:It would be hell for me. Which is why I sympathize greatly with people who choose celibacy on behalf of their religion, be it LGBT folk, singles, divorcees or catholic priests. Yet the church holds a carrot out in front of them offering promises if they endure to the end. My bishop believes LGBTs will become Hetero in the hereafter. I don’t blame him for thinking that way, I couldn’t do the job of bishop unless I believed that we were offering real hope to those who are keeping their covenants. Curious R4H, and you don’t have to answer publicly, but what are your thoughts on fornication as a divorced, faith transitioning person?
I have no problem answering your question. I am excommunicated right now, so there is “technically” nothing in the “Church” to prevent me from going out there and fornicating if I choose. And, MANY people who have no religion feel that what you do in your own relationships is your business, no one else s.
Your question can spin into two directions here, and since I enjoy dialog, I will answer it in such a way that it can divide if needed.
1) I do believe personally it is wrong morally to engage in sexual relations outside of marriage.
2) For the life of me, it frightens me to death to consider remarriage WITHOUT knowing we are sexually compatible.
And hence,..I have a conflict that gnaws at me as I date. And this is flat out being honest here.
According to SWK, the #1 cause of divorce back in the day was they didn’t get along sexually. The church doesn’t address that topic hardly at all (with the exception of the VERY recent FHE lesson). IN fact, the church has downplayed, IMHO, that topic. And yet, the divorces seem to still roll along. So its a dilemma for me at least.
Anyway SP,…there you go. Thoughts?
SilentDawning wrote:Rob4Hope wrote:OK,….
Many people who are MARRIED even have to deal with this loneliness. How sad is that!? For a long time, I did, and felt my chances would be better if I moved on, which I am working on now (so I don’t see myself alone forever).
But I want to know comments about this from others. It seems that “singleness” is a challenge for the LDS faith. Am I wrong in this assessment? And, what are others feeling about this topic?
Yep. I feel alone in my marriage at times. I know the feelings. You get used to the other person’s thought and behavior patterns, and they become predictable. I know that if I mention something on my mind more than once to my spouse, my spouse will say “you already told me that”, effectively shutting down the conversation. So, much of my inner life goes unexpressed even in marriage. And often, she mistakes my sharing of a detail twice as repetition, when in fact, the second time is an introduction to an expansion of the previous comment based on new information.
And of course, I understand the lack of physical intimacy problem.
I don’t have much of an answer to this. I do think that exposing yourself to a lot of new people may help you run into someone who fills the ache of loneliness.
I’m not a great one to talk to about this, because I have often thought that if I do become single, I would probably not get married again. Part of me does not see the point — perhaps loneliness will fix that…
But I was single until I was in my late, late twenties, and know the ache of being alone. The period from when I was 25 to 28 was full of that deafening quiet when I would come home. Even being in a crowd can be lonely when you don’t have a close relationship with anyone in that crowd….
But one thing I never underestimate is the power of life to change a person’s mind, and for life to surprise you with someone that can help you feel fulfilled again. I leave that possibility open…
SD, I don’t know if you are male or female….I know very little about most on this site (but I am learning…I am learning).
Correction,…just read it more carefully…you mentioned your spouse is “she”. Sorry,…not up to speed on your post.
Anyway, thanks for the response.
There is a ZEN idea that I have wrestled with. And it seems that in some ways it might be part of the gospel? That idea is to eliminate the desire in the first place, the desire to be wanted or held, or loved. If we don’t desire that, we can’t be hurt from the lack of it.
Anyone out there ever read Todd Comptons book “In Sacred Loneliness”? Is it part of the Gospel of JC for us to take solace in loneliness, learning to deny this part of our humanity?
OK…FAITH CRISIS moment coming on…I feel it. It makes me angry to consider that God would implant feelings into our hearts, and then deny them to us because we are to choose Him and His Gospel at the exclusion of how we were created in the first place. This seems cruel to me………this is something I have struggled with in my past, and it turns me away from God.
Thoughts?
Rob4Hope wrote:There is a ZEN idea that I have wrestled with. And it seems that in some ways it might be part of the gospel? That idea is to eliminate the desire in the first place, the desire to be wanted or held, or loved. If we don’t desire that, we can’t be hurt from the lack of it.
Sounds somewhere between delusional and outright dangerous, like a recovering addict convincing themselves they’ve truly eliminated the desire for the focus of their addiction. Good way to find yourself in a hard relapse without the psychological preparation to deal with it.
Quote:Anyone out there ever read Todd Comptons book “In Sacred Loneliness”? Is it part of the Gospel of JC for us to take solace in loneliness, learning to deny this part of our humanity?
Doubtful; the desire for companionship certainly appears to be something that we gain from being created in His image, so denying it would be counterproductive to the goal of becoming like Him.
NightSG wrote:Sounds somewhere between delusional and outright dangerous, like a recovering addict convincing themselves they’ve truly eliminated the desire for the focus of their addiction. Good way to find yourself in a hard relapse without the psychological preparation to deal with it.
How so?
The reason I brought up Compton’s book is because it speaks about the “wives” intentionally turning their full attention to their children because they finally accepted that they would NOT be getting their needs met from their marriage. Loneliness was profound.
I know people personally who have intentionally taken overt steps in their life to displace the loneliness (in marriage that is) with a shift of focus. Is it addictive to want to be loved and desired by your spouse? If it is not addictive, how do you justify the loneliness being unmet in a situation that was created by God in the first place?
Rob4Hope wrote:startpoor wrote:It would be hell for me. Which is why I sympathize greatly with people who choose celibacy on behalf of their religion, be it LGBT folk, singles, divorcees or catholic priests. Yet the church holds a carrot out in front of them offering promises if they endure to the end. My bishop believes LGBTs will become Hetero in the hereafter. I don’t blame him for thinking that way, I couldn’t do the job of bishop unless I believed that we were offering real hope to those who are keeping their covenants. Curious R4H, and you don’t have to answer publicly, but what are your thoughts on fornication as a divorced, faith transitioning person?
I have no problem answering your question. I am excommunicated right now, so there is “technically” nothing in the “Church” to prevent me from going out there and fornicating if I choose. And, MANY people who have no religion feel that what you do in your own relationships is your business, no one else s.
Your question can spin into two directions here, and since I enjoy dialog, I will answer it in such a way that it can divide if needed.
1) I do believe personally it is wrong morally to engage in sexual relations outside of marriage.
2) For the life of me, it frightens me to death to consider remarriage WITHOUT knowing we are sexually compatible.
And hence,..I have a conflict that gnaws at me as I date. And this is flat out being honest here.
According to SWK, the #1 cause of divorce back in the day was they didn’t get along sexually. The church doesn’t address that topic hardly at all (with the exception of the VERY recent FHE lesson). IN fact, the church has downplayed, IMHO, that topic. And yet, the divorces seem to still roll along. So its a dilemma for me at least.
Anyway SP,…there you go. Thoughts?
Ha! Thanks for the honest answer. I think people who haven’t been in sexual relationships think that sexual compatibility is a given, or that good sex just happens and has nothing to do with good communication. So it’s probably “easier” for young, “faithful” mormons to abstain from sex before marriage than for someone who has had such a relationship.As I have faith transitioned, I have not thought so highly of waiting till marriage, but rather learning to be responsible and knowing how to communicate about it. I don’t think the fornication is a sin, but rather how we use sex (as a tool, as a weapon, with disregard for another’s feelings, with disregard for consequences etc) or if it is in the form of adultery. But that is because I believe in sins agains self and others, rather than sins against God (for the most part anyway, there probably are some ways we can sin against God.)
Why do you think sex outside of marriage is a sin?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Hey R4H, Todd Compton’s book was a good one. And while I see what you’re saying about all of the women who learned to focus on their children, the book also spent a lot of time showing how miserable many of them were when they realized that they weren’t going to have the close intimate marriage that they might have in a monogamous relationship. I think that’s one of the ugliest things about polygamy. A husband might have 5 wives, but his wives only get 1/5 of a husband. It’s an unequal relationship and I don’t believe it’s what God intended. The women learned to cope, simply because they had to.
I believe we were given our emotions to help us figure out what is/isn’t healthy. I would compare loneliness to hunger. When we need food, we get hungry. When we need emotional connection, we get lonely. I don’t think it’s addictive to want to be with somebody. It’s healthy. However, it CAN become addictive. Eating a meal when you’re hungry isn’t addictive, but eating can become addictive when it gets out of control. Wanting to love and be loved is a normal healthy behavior, but it can become addictive when it’s all a person craves (think prostitutes, strip clubs, escorts, etc.). Most healthy behaviors can become a problem when they go to either extreme. Completely ignoring our desires and emotions is denying that we have needs. Yet, acting out on every urge can lead to an addictive behavior. Life is a big balancing act.
And one final comment, about God putting people in a situation where they are lonely and then expecting them to just deal with it, I personally don’t believe God puts people in that situation. This is my personal perspective, but I don’t think God is really that involved in our daily lives that he creates these situations that we have to go through. We live in an imperfect world, and we all go through different trials and different levels of imperfect crap. I think that’s just part of being in this world. I don’t think God is directing everything that’s happening. He’s allowing things to happen however they will. Think about those girls in Nigeria who were kidnapped by Boko Haram. I don’t believe God had anything to do with the situation those girls had to go through. He probably watched it happen, cried about it, but allowed it to happen, because we are all going through this mess together, and we all have the agency to do good, bad, or be indifferent. So, I don’t think anybody can justify the loneliness that you’re going through. It just
is. Sorry you’re going through this rough time! Again, these are just my personal thoughts, and my perspective is not coming from any kind of gospel-backed viewpoint. Good luck, dude!
startpoor wrote:Why do you think sex outside of marriage is a sin?
OK…we are spinning into other conversations here,..which is fine. I really do enjoy the dialog.
Sex outside of marriage CAN BE a delicate topic: controversial, extremely personal, riddled with all kinds of religious and moral overtones, etc. I want to treat your question carefully, and I can only speak for myself.
I have discovered something in my life experience,…and that is I have learned about me. I know myself very well, and I know what my own appetites, passions, desires, dreams, and everything else is. It surprises me how many people never learn anything, even when they make mistakes! I don’t get it, but there it is.
Anyway, I didn’t get excommunicated because I was saying cus words during a priesthood meeting,…if you get my drift.
I have learned there are 2 essential components about sexual intimacy that make it satisfying: emotional commitment and erotic pleasure/abandonment. There is a safety component the first provides to find the second, and at the same time, without the second, the level and degree of the first is hampered.
Non-committal sex is empty and shallow. It is like being very thirsty and having a big glass of yummy milk to drink, and only wetting your mouth on the foam at the top. It provides the anticipatory illusion of satisfaction, but leaves you empty and wanting. That is what I have found. And so, my understanding of the LOC is that fornication, for example, is not only about protecting you from emotional connection that can leave you damaged (more about this later), but it is also about providing satisfaction that can come only through commitment. You see, without the commitment (and the greatest commitment IMHO comes through the exclusive and formal institution of marriage), it becomes more difficult to abandon yourself to erotic passion. The meal becomes anemic and hollow.
Now, it is very common for women (less so with men, but still happens) to emotionally connect through sexual expression. If a woman connects with a man, and they don’t have a commitment that provides exclusivity and availability, emotional damage can happen. They have this man in their arms who they connect to through strong erotic emotions, and then he pulls away because they fornicated–not being committed to each other. This causes damage. It can wrench a heart and destroy lives.
So, with regards to fornication–if you have an agreement with the other person that you are only in it to enjoy the non-committal sex, then I suppose you are in agreement. But, I know that in myself, the depth and pleasure–satisfaction if you will– of such a coupling is not fulfilling. It is because of that experience, because I know myself, that I don’t believe fornication is a viable option.
Make sense?
PS…I don’t understand this sin next to murder stuff. Sorry. I just don’t get it.
Holy Cow wrote:And one final comment, about God putting people in a situation where they are lonely and then expecting them to just deal with it, I personally don’t believe God puts people in that situation. This is my personal perspective, but I don’t think God is really that involved in our daily lives that he creates these situations that we have to go through.
This is where I am actually leaning more and more. I was raised to believe God was VERY involved,…all the time. Its a part of my faith crisis,…but making progress.
I am not as lonely as many. I actually reach out a lot, and have MANY good friends. But,…the loneliness is, IMHO, one of the biggest challenges that affects LDS populations. The single adult question, the LGBT, and other groups,…well, I just wonder about those folks. My heart is touched by those who suffer.
Hey Rob, After my divorce…I noticed that feeling you were describing.
It is a big life adjustment and there isn’t really a way to prepare for it or solve it or explain it. It just is the way life is.
However…in my situation…I also remember how incredibly liberating and free I felt to do whatever the heck I wanted to do. Places in town or restaurants I hadn’t been to…just spending a saturday in the park reading…finding hiking trails in the mountains or bike paths…getting lots of exercise and walking my dog…taking a book to a coffee shop and using their wifi to download and listen to podcasts…watching Netflix all saturday and doing nothing but being relaxed and lazy…playing basketball with guys at church…I did a “walkabout” of visiting 6 different religious services…I volunteered to clean the church and do ward service…
I started to see a whole new world of things I could go do by myself and I really loved it.
When one door closes, I found 3 or 4 other doors to peek inside and explore.
In all honesty, I went through a range of emotions. Times of being lonely. Times of enjoying freedom. Times of self-reflection on how to use my time to better myself. Times of relaxing and enjoying quiet and peaceful apartments. Of course, I came from a chaotic failed marriage, so I needed some peace and enjoyed it.
When I got lonely, I started dating some, when I was ready. That was an adventure too. But helped me see there are lotsa members in our situation as older singles. It was a bit crazy. The last thing I wanted to do was cling to someone because I was lonely. I wanted to be at peace with myself before starting a new relationship of any kind. But at times, I did find being around others or dating was a good way to find some companionship…I just backed off quickly when I wasn’t ready for it. I was in control but dabbled in this and that.
But I think my time alone reading Eckhart Tolle and Joseph Campbell and others…I found that in life we get lotsa stuff, good and bad mixed together. I could accept my new chapter of my life.
In my new phase of life, I tried to keep balance and stretch myself to look for improvements. Physically, mentally, emotionally, and spiritually. I am the captain of my ship…accepted the place in life I was at…and made choices to try new things as single LDS divorced man.
When I felt the ward was doing family stuff that didn’t apply to me, I simply didn’t go. I probably found less desire to go to church when it was no longer for the family unit and raising children and all…for just me alone…sitting in sacrament meeting…IDK…it was kinda bland. So I skipped a lot to use my weekends from work wisely for me and my rejuvenation.
What interests do you have that you want to explore with your time you have to yourself? This new chapter for you is both hard and also promising.
Heber13 wrote:Hey Rob,
After my divorce…I noticed that feeling you were describing.
It is a big life adjustment and there isn’t really a way to prepare for it or solve it or explain it. It just is the way life is.
However…in my situation…I also remember how incredibly liberating and free I felt to do whatever the heck I wanted to do. Places in town or restaurants I hadn’t been to…just spending a saturday in the park reading…finding hiking trails in the mountains or bike paths…getting lots of exercise and walking my dog…taking a book to a coffee shop and using their wifi to download and listen to podcasts…watching Netflix all saturday and doing nothing but being relaxed and lazy…playing basketball with guys at church…I did a “walkabout” of visiting 6 different religious services…I volunteered to clean the church and do ward service…
I started to see a whole new world of things I could go do by myself and I really loved it.
When one door closes, I found 3 or 4 other doors to peek inside and explore.
In all honesty, I went through a range of emotions. Times of being lonely. Times of enjoying freedom. Times of self-reflection on how to use my time to better myself. Times of relaxing and enjoying quiet and peaceful apartments. Of course, I came from a chaotic failed marriage, so I needed some peace and enjoyed it.
When I got lonely, I started dating some, when I was ready. That was an adventure too. But helped me see there are lotsa members in our situation as older singles. It was a bit crazy. The last thing I wanted to do was cling to someone because I was lonely. I wanted to be at peace with myself before starting a new relationship of any kind. But at times, I did find being around others or dating was a good way to find some companionship…I just backed off quickly when I wasn’t ready for it. I was in control but dabbled in this and that.
But I think my time alone reading Eckhart Tolle and Joseph Campbell and others…I found that in life we get lotsa stuff, good and bad mixed together. I could accept my new chapter of my life.
In my new phase of life, I tried to keep balance and stretch myself to look for improvements. Physically, mentally, emotionally, and spiritually. I am the captain of my ship…accepted the place in life I was at…and made choices to try new things as single LDS divorced man.
When I felt the ward was doing family stuff that didn’t apply to me, I simply didn’t go. I probably found less desire to go to church when it was no longer for the family unit and raising children and all…for just me alone…sitting in sacrament meeting…IDK…it was kinda bland. So I skipped a lot to use my weekends from work wisely for me and my rejuvenation.
What interests do you have that you want to explore with your time you have to yourself? This new chapter for you is both hard and also promising.
Heber, my loneliness is quite manageable at this point. My post thread here comes not as much from my own position, but from my reflection on the very LARGE problem of loneliness in general.
I have discovered a lot of what you are saying. And, I am dating (and being honest about my situation as well–and surprisingly, you have NO IDEA how grateful and open people are with me BECAUSE they are not use to honesty). Dating is fun,…and crazy. But there it is.
Anyway,…thanks for the response.
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