Long- New Here, Lifetime piling up.

[Anonymous]

Hi I’m new here. I’m not an expert on church history or anything. I did enjoy Truman Madsen’s tapes before I lost them, and I am reading “Rough Stone Rolling” right now though I am not too far into it. I come from a long line of members going back to the pioneers. I am not so much the victim of a “Faith Crisis” but more of a mountain of little things that add up. Many of these are priesthood blessings gone awry and perhaps I am a failed believer of the “No man will be tempted beyond his ability to resist” dogma or at least my belief in that is failing fast.

My Dad was a professor in the sciences who was a very staunch believer but he also thought a lot and was politically neutral on many things needing a burden of proof before he believed something someone said. I got a lot of this from him. I remember him stating that there were parts of Communism in the Law of Consecration one day when I was regurgitating something I’d heard at church and it took me aback a bit (that was in the 80’s when Russia was evil incarnate in many people’s minds).

Anyway, I get a lot of my critical thinking from him and a good portion from the stupid Anthropology professor who mocked my “Humanities” major ingnorance of the scientific method when I presented my final report to him (he was a fruitcake but he did refresh my interest in critical thinking so I suppose I can thank him for that), that haunted me for a long time. Not to say I am much of an intellectual, but I like to have a reason to believe in things and do use that no good “liberal” outlet snopes.com quite a bit.

Anyway, why I’m here (and I’m so very glad that here exists as I was burning up from the inside out with frustration). Over the last several years I’ve had my faith slowly etched away by things. A lot of it centers on Mental Illness and how the Church has treated it and other issues. My Mom was Bipolar and in the 80’s my Dad got a lot of really bad advice from church leaders. I suffered a lot due to her struggles, and I myself struggled with dealing with an abduction/molestation experience that occured while collecting for the newspaper I delivered when I was 10. I don’t know if my parents didn’t get me therapy because of the attitude in the church towards Mental Health back then but I had a lot of issues that stemmed from that and because I was typically a reserved personality I think everyone assumed I was OK since I didn’t act out a lot and didn’t talk about it. I think much of my Social Anxiety and fear of conflict stems from that so I suppose I still have issues and perhaps therapy now wouldn’t be a bad idea but I digress.

Through the years I have had faith issues which were never fully resolved which I will sum up below-

-Became horribly sick on my wedding night, 106 degree fever following day, got blessing, told would get better, fever dropped somewhat but throat swelled shut so much that swallowing was excruciating, still went on my honeymoon to Disneyland sure that I would get better because the blessing said so. Heavily drugged I had a very sick Honeymoon and was several weeks in recovery. antibiotics would have cleared it right up but we were not insured as marriage dropped me off of my Dad’s insurance, and our student insurance didn’t kick in until the beginning of the semester. This was a bit of a first blow to my faith but not a killer, after all, I should have gone to the doctor and just ate the er bill.

-Friends wife whose father hated him, received a blessing from her father saying that if she didn’t leave my friend he would hurt her. Shortly after he got home from the 4th of July firework show in a seperate car, and she never returned with the kids. She accused my friend of Molestation in order to sever his visitation. I made him get an attorney (he is not a very aggressive person and doesn’t stick up for himself much) and they accused him of taking food out of his kids mouths because he hired an attorney. Long story short, he got visits, the person that gave the blessing (incidentally the bishopric member that helped with it swore it was of God) commited suicide not too long afterwards. Mom disappeared with the kids, but went to jail when a baby she had had with one of her new boyfriends got left in the car in Phoenix and died. My Friend got his kids back through a lot of pain and court appearances. This was another one, the Lord is not into destroying marriages I thought, and yet the bishopric member was so adament.

-My Patriarchal Blessing says I’ll be a great part in the gathering of israel and emphasizes my missionary work, Pres. Kimball in my signed edition of his biography commented on how the Lord would bless me in Paul’s footsteps. Yet I only really baptized one person on my mission. I have social anxiety that makes me shake whenever I try to even so much as hand out an invitation to the Easter Pageant to a co-worker.

-2 years in the Bishopric serving my heart out 20-30 hours a week and should have been happy but was miserable much of the time, especially on months I was to conduct. After all that the guy I served with barely remembers I even was one of his counselors and it seems like it’s an after thought to him. Not that I want a medal or anything but we did go through **** together for 2 years, would be nice to be acknowledged as a comrade.

-One day my wife and I felt impressed that a neighboring ward member needed the extra $1500 we had tucked away more than we did so we got a friend of hers that the neighbor didn’t know to drop it by. Next week in bishopric meeting the bishop bemoans that he was trying to teach the priesthood holder in this house a “lesson” by withholding support and trying to force him to find a job before his house was foreclosed (back in the day when people still theoretically tried to do everything possible to avoid a foreclosure) but someone apparently didn’t trust his leadership and bailed the family out. – this one bugged me for a long time. I think though, in retrospect, the Bishop was approaching this as a lazy priesthood holder problem when I believe it is actually a Mental Health problem. Again though, two different spiritual messages, was the Bishop right or was I right? This question has dogged me for a decade now and I think I am finally finding peace in acknowledging that priesthood leaders make mistakes and that perhaps Authority does not equal perfection or even knowledge, it only means freedom to act for another but does not necessarily mean the other completely agrees. I fully believe they would have lost their house if not for that intervention.

-Brother came out of the closet while I was in the Bishopric. It hit me really hard and I mourned as if it were a death in the family. This event did a lot and continues to do a lot to change me. I am much more compassionate than I was, but it seems this compassion is a “bad” thing to many in the church and creates a struggle for me as I live in a veritable hotbed of conservatism similar to Utah.

-Because of genetic issues I have, my Wife and I had to adopt. We have some wonderful kids, 2 of which have pretty severe Mental Health issues to the point it has caused my overworked and exhausted wife to develop depression and anxiety. She is a very staunch and faithful member (TBM? Still picking up on the abreviations) but is outspoken enough to take the SP to task when told to exceed her limits and told that Jesus never took a vacation by SP in his Ward Conference talk (incidentally he never went to the bathroom either, I distinctly don’t recall reading about that in the scriptures). I love her dearly but am afraid her faith is a lot stronger than mine at this point in still proclaiming everything Priesthood leaders say is gospel. To me there is a disconnect but not to her.

I struggle in our Marriage as the high stress load causes issues where I feel I am a lower priority yet still am constantly pressured to make her the top priority (which I do do my best to do) and right now I don’t see any other way to work around it due to the high needs of the boys and the fact we make too much money to get respite and stuff like that but don’t have enough to pay for respite. It is very much what it is and frustration is high, I struggle faithwise with a God who would create seemingly untennable situations. Outside the church folks would cry divorce, and yet, the children cannot be abandoned and I still love my wife dearly.

So, we come at last to my current thoughts, and these are my beliefs on good days which I hope will be increasingly numerous now that I have found this group. In a black and white world it is easy to be thrust towards being Agnostic when you are in a mindset of it’s either perfect or it’s not at all. I do not believe God is a micro manager. I believe that he does not purposely do things to hurt us, but because he is such a believer in free agency, he is pretty hands-off. Therefore, I should not blame/hate him for what is really fate or bad luck. WE can be forced beyond our capabilities to resist but the lord is charitable and merciful and provides ways for us to recover and deal. Priesthood blessings are not infallible prophesy as some would have us believe, and yet, there is a purpose to them which if nothing else provides comfort and so I still should feel comfortable giving them. Not all conference/sacrament talks are for me, but some are, I must take the ones that affect me positively and go with them. Priesthood leaders receive revelation for the church/units as a whole, not necessarily me personally. I have struggled to resolve findings of Milgram’s 37 experiment with the mindset of sustaining our leaders and have decided that the word “sustain” does not mean abject obesance but rather to “sustain” means to maintain or provide support/keep from dying. As a result, if my inaction would cause the leader to “fail” completely as a leader then I would not be sustaining him but otherwise, I should do my best but not beat myself up if I can’t go 100%, particularly in hometeaching. I spent 7 hours visiting 5 families last month. I didn’t get to the other 2, one of which is inactive and gives me the run around constantly but won’t tell me to my face she doesn’t want to talk to me and I have kind of given up there, and one is a new sister I got stuck on my route for some odd reason, since apparently I didn’t have enough (growing up Dad never had more than 3 families, I feel like Lucy on the Chocolate line as there are increasingly less active mormons to HT everyone).

I have also started to approach my Mormon Beliefs from a DAOist perspective which I think is helping somewhat. Anyway, this has been a long and by no means complete introduction to my current psyche but I was ready to throw it all away Saturday (Faith that is) after a long bike ride filled with much thought and contemplation, but as I put my garments back on at the end of the day I had a distinct thought hit me that it means something. Then yesterday I found this forum and now I have hope. So thanks for being here folks. I felt like I was burning up from the inside with nowhere to go since open discussion with those around me would result in much pain to dear ones, and perhaps overreactions from Priesthood Leader’s, well intentioned though they are.

[Anonymous]

I don’t mean to challenge anyone who believes in a very involved God incidentally, just say that it hasn’t worked that way for me seemingly. Pat blessing says I’m a ‘special’ child so it might just be me. Anyway, it’s easier for me to love God with this interpretation of things, but perhaps I’ll find another explanation at some point.

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[Anonymous]

Welcome Sirbikesalot,

below are some random thoughts that I had while reading your post:

There are many different ways to look at things. I believe that expectations are big parts of faith crises. We expected x, perhaps we made sacrifices for x or even built our lives upon x. It can be traumatic to learn that x is in reality a “y”.

I believe priesthood blessings are essentially prayers. We wouldn’t assign so much value to a prayer – so why to a priesthood blessing. I know – because we expect it to be x.

Mormons are generally good people, but as a group I don’t believe that we do “goodness” better than some other groups. Many of us are inconsiderate. Additionally, some of us are downright mean-spirited and hurtful.

I like Patriarchal Blessings. I also consider them to be anachronisms (something from another time that seems out of place). I find the history of Patriarchal Blessings and the Presiding Patriarch fascinating. I wouldn’t be surprised at all if Patriarchal Blessings one day went the way of the Presiding Patriarch, or Women blessing other women during childbirth, or speaking in tongues, or the Second Anointing – which is to say quietly discontinued.

You are not alone about wondering on God’s direct and continual involvement. I recently wrote the following:

Quote:

I also have belatedly come to the worldview where God doesn’t or can’t intervene in daily life. This does cause me to disbelieve many divine intervention stories. When I hear people saying that fortuitous coincidences where put in motion by God for their personal benefit, then I tell myself that their interpretation helps them to be happy and see the world as a comfortable and safe place. I am genuinely happy for them in their interpretation; it just doesn’t work for me.

The one exception in my worldview of the “divine non-interference clause” is to send a general sense of peace and wellbeing. I want to believe that God sends these “love taps” to remind us that he cares – so I do.

Please be very careful with your wife. It sounds as though she is already physically and emotionally taxed. Dealing with a spouse’s faith crisis can be draining even for the most healthy and supportive of marriages. Go slow and strive for a spirit of love.

Finally, it can be frustrating once we learn from sad experience that x is y to hear people proclaiming at church that x is still x and is the greatest x since sliced bread. It can be helpful to remember that your perspective has changed largely due to your life experiences. It is ok for someone else with different life experiences to see things differently – in fact their perspective of x might serve them well for their entire lives. We all see through a glass darkly and latch on to things/concepts that we need at the time.

Again welcome – I look forward to your participation in the forums.

[Anonymous]

Thanks Roy. I read the staying LDS doc yesterday and the advice in there to apply the same respect to those you find frustrating that you apply to folk of other faiths was very enlightening and freeing. I think remembering that will be good for my marriage and the other members I have found frustrating in recent months. This site is a goldmine of wisdom.

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[Anonymous]

Sir,

Welcome aboard. Thanks for the thorough introduction. I think you have found a safe place to express your doubts, struggles, and nuanced faith.

As a side note, I only have two families to home teach and I am in the EQ presidency and still only home teach about once a quarter. So don’t beat youself up as you are doing fantastic in my book.

[Anonymous]

Welcome,

First off I think that Roy nailed many of my thoughts when he talked about expectations. I have come to learn that when I expect X and Y happens that it does throw my world off. I have really learned that many of my expectations just were not realistic. Sure they were expectations that the church wanted me to have and promises that they taught but sadly they were empty, or at least lacking. I have come to look at things much differently. I am very familiar with issues involving mental illness and dealing with that really sucks at times. It makes every thing harder and because you are not dealing with rational thoughts the responses can be any thing but rational.

After reading through your introduction I get a sense that you usually take things at face value. I was much like that but I have learned to step back an question more. I also have learn to rely more on my own feelings then just accept what others tell me. There is a lot of good advice here but you still need to find your own answers. I want you to know that I have found great comfort here and that I enjoy the sense of peace and safety that posting and reading has brought me. I hope you find the same.

[Anonymous]

Thanks HPMBH. Although I have decided things aren’t as perfect as everyone says they are I do still want to and believe I can contribute, just not at the expense of sanity and all I hold dear anymore, and am coming to decide boundaries may be useful. I don’t think the gospel means for us to be miserable in this life so I am finding I need to sift out the things the church expects that are causing that and accentuate the parts that don’t.

Thanks Church, it is definitely a weakness of mine that I care way too much about what others think of me. It’s probably what kept me digging my own hole so long in suffering. I’m working on being a little more unconcerned, but still don’t want to be unconcerned to the point I get disciplined. So I suppose I need to draw some boundaries and figure a happier medium than taking everything personally. I am proud to report I stopped wearing a suit to church. Sounds dumb but it is kind of a big thing for me. Why do we dress like businessmen at church anyway? I guess it’s historical but seems to be becoming an anachronism to me. I’m starting to concentrate more on inward spirituality as opposed to outward. Being a disciple as opposed to a pharisee. To me the shedding of the suit symbolizes that. I’ve often had a different sort of testimony I think from those around me and I always thought I needed to get a testimony just like their’s which has led to a lot of frustration. When you say rely more on your own feelings, I am coming to understand the importance of that a lot more now. I think the church culture expects everyone to be an A. On this board, it seems there are all letters of the alphabet so to speak and so it seems like it will be a place I can truly be myself, which is good practice for me.

[Anonymous]

Yeah, it helps not to care much about others’ perceptions.

Welcome. I don’t have much time right now, but I did want to welcome you to this forum. I hope we can help you, and you can help us.

[Anonymous]

sirbikesalot wrote:

On this board, it seems there are all letters of the alphabet so to speak and so it seems like it will be a place I can truly be myself, which is good practice for me.

You might even call us “Alphabet Soup.” Taste the rainbow!

[Anonymous]

sirbikesalot wrote:

-One day my wife and I felt impressed that a neighboring ward member needed the extra $1500 we had tucked away more than we did so we got a friend of hers that the neighbor didn’t know to drop it by. Next week in bishopric meeting the bishop bemoans that he was trying to teach the priesthood holder in this house a “lesson” by withholding support and trying to force him to find a job before his house was foreclosed (back in the day when people still theoretically tried to do everything possible to avoid a foreclosure) but someone apparently didn’t trust his leadership and bailed the family out. – this one bugged me for a long time. I think though, in retrospect, the Bishop was approaching this as a lazy priesthood holder problem when I believe it is actually a Mental Health problem. Again though, two different spiritual messages, was the Bishop right or was I right? This question has dogged me for a decade now and I think I am finally finding peace in acknowledging that priesthood leaders make mistakes and that perhaps Authority does not equal perfection or even knowledge, it only means freedom to act for another but does not necessarily mean the other completely agrees. I fully believe they would have lost their house if not for that intervention.

I give you credit for acting very Christlike! When money is involved, it is easy to forget about doing nice things. It sounds like your Bishop was jealous that someone else gets to receive credit for helping a ward member.

[Anonymous]

Angrymormon- that’s definitely a possibility. That’s the first time I’ve mentioned that experience but it really is one of the biggies if I have to look at questioning priesthood authority in my life. You get all those wonderful stories in primary about prophets and folks doing secret acts of kindness and then you do it and your priesthood leader unknowingly shoots you out of the sky, that was tough.

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[Anonymous]

sirbikesalot wrote:

-Because of genetic issues I have, my Wife and I had to adopt. We have 4 wonderful kids, 2 of which have pretty severe Mental Health issues to the point it has caused my overworked and exhausted wife to develop depression and anxiety. [snip] I struggle in our Marriage as the high stress load causes issues where I feel I am a lower priority yet still am constantly pressured to make her the top priority (which I do do my best to do) and right now I don’t see any other way to work around it due to the high needs of the boys and the fact we make too much money to get respite and stuff like that but don’t have enough to pay for respite. It is very much what it is and frustration is high, I struggle faithwise with a God who would create seemingly untennable situations. Outside the church folks would cry divorce, and yet, the children cannot be abandoned and I still love my wife dearly.

I read a book by a LDS member called “When life doesn’t seem fair.” It was about this man’s grappling with 3 severly handicaped children (out of 6), a stained marriage and family life, and struggling finances while he saw himself as just as faithful as the people down the street taking family vacations to Hawaii with thier healthy children. I did not agree with all his conclusions but I completely understand why they worked for him and gave him a better sense of peace. I think you might benefit from reading it…or I can discuss my thoughts on it if you would prefer.

[Anonymous]

sirbikesalot wrote:

I have also started to approach my Mormon Beliefs from a DAOist perspective which I think is helping somewhat. Anyway, this has been a long and by no means complete introduction to my current psyche but I was ready to throw it all away Saturday (Faith that is) after a long 14 hour bike ride filled with much thought and contemplation, but as I put my garments back on at the end of the day I had a distinct thought hit me that it means something. Then yesterday I found this forum and now I have hope. So thanks for being here folks. I felt like I was burning up from the inside with nowhere to go since open discussion with those around me would result in much pain to dear ones, and perhaps overreactions from Priesthood Leader’s, well intentioned though they are.

hmmm.

Thank-you for your very thorough introduction. I can relate to a lot of what you’ve said.

daoist. I think I’ve heard of that somewhere (an understatement). Would you care to elaborate? What aspect of daoism intrigues you and you find applicable to LDS beliefs?

[Anonymous]

Wayfairer- It seems Taoism/Daoism is focused more on what is and not so much expectations. I think a lot of my frustrations come from unmet expectations I have in faith or that others have in me. Revisiting the Dao seems to be helping me deal with things by admitting that maybe I don’t have to deal with everything, maybe it doesn’t matter what others think as long as I am getting things right inside. Of course I am still commited to family and such but I’ve really decided that if I am not functioning inside then I’m not going to be much use to others on the outside. I’ve been working through the first few chapters of the Tao De Ching and I really think its helping me to center. Had a great Sunday at church, best one in a long time, which is really funny. Didn’t take nearly as much personally.

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[Anonymous]

Roy- I’ll have to look that book up, thanks for pointing it out.

I would also appreciate any thoughts you might have.

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