- This topic is empty.
-
Posts
-
Thanks so much for this post. I think of the concept of “Checks and Balances”. Our U.S. Government is composed of three distinct branches to check and balance each other. If one branch is overstepping, for example, it can be struck down by the Courts. One concept that is hard for me is that we have a system which does not appear to have any sort of check and balance. If the Prophet holds to a specific policy, we cannot question that policy without being considered apostate – we risk losing our membership.
These check points that you talk about are interesting. I remember one experience in a college pre-calculus class. The instructor was a superb mathematician. I considered him the best, brightest and most brilliant mathematical mind I had ever met. One day, we were in a rush to finish a class. He grabbed some chalk and began working a long formula out on the blackboard. He was trying to talk to students, answer questions and was also watching the clock. He made an error! One of the students spoke up and pointed to the error. The teacher turned to the class, looked at the board and said, “perhaps I’m mistaken”. He grabbed the eraser, wiped out the error and corrected the equation. Done.
I wish we had that eraser in the Church. I wish that we could say, “whoops”, perhaps I was mistaken. Let’s recalculate this and move on. We ALL make mistakes. We just put the wrong numbers into the formula. If somebody shoots, “we got it wrong”, why can’t we just stop for a moment and look at our “blackboard”? I since learned that it is possible to always arrive that the correct conclusion if we check and balance each other. There may only be one lone person who notices the error and points it out, but listening to him is vital.
Valoel wrote:My personal opinion only: Part of a solid Stage 5 point of view in Mormonism, if that is the direction someone is drawn, is to give one’s self permission to be immersed in the idea of being a “true” religion (even if that takes a redefinition or adjustment)
ANDat the same time being comfortable with the fact that is only a symbolic element in our LDS mythology. The LDS Church, as a concept, has a need to be “True” in order for a lot of it to work. That is the “conjunctive” faith development, combining the recognition of the symbols as mediating a transcendent thought with the ability to be in them, working with them at the same time. It is a new combination of our conscious rational self with our unconscious, intuitive (irrational) self. It is a “willful” or “second” naivete’.
Valoel, I hope one day to be able to understand what you wrote and rejoice in its clarity. However, I am definately not in Stage 5 right now.
Unless I am mistaken, Seanhess, you are not in Stage 5 either (check out Fowler’s Stage of Faith on this forum to see what everyone is talking about, it comes up very frequently) but you are coming to grips with your disaffection and begining to question everything you have been taught in the church. At this point on your journey, I think it is perfectly acceptable for you to say the church is not true, not like you believed it was, but it
isgood. And you can hold onto the goodness and allow it to sustain you in your struggles with your faith. Valoel and Ray, correct me if I’m wrong, but even in stage 5 you cannot honestly say that the church is true in the same way you believed it was when you were in stage 3. Can you? Perhaps you can, but if you have to redefine what “true” is, then something must have changed between Stage 3 and Stage 5.
MisterCurie wrote:Valoel and Ray, correct me if I’m wrong, but even in stage 5 you cannot honestly say that the church is true in the same way you believed it was when you were in stage 3. Can you? Perhaps you can, but if you have to redefine what “true” is, then something must have changed between Stage 3 and Stage 5.
I don’t think there’s any question about “something” changing between stages 3 and 5. I would say a great deal changes over several facets. One aspect is understanding humanity, I think Davis Bitton describes this pretty well:
“I think my faith has changed and deepened and become richer and more consistent with the complexities of human experience.”http://www.fairlds.org/FAIR_Conferences/2004_I_Dont_Have_a_Testimony_of_the_History_of_the_Church.html A perspective which I think shows the results of growth and maturity AFTER coming to terms with the humanity in church leadership.
This is probably forcing another point into the discussion but I think the “complexities” of being human (and imperfect) make “absolutism” very difficult to retain in the face of reality. In Bushman’s Mormon Stories interview he said:
(RB Part 3, 56:28-57:31)
…I think your depiction of the disillusioned person is probably quite accurate. It’s the absolutist, it’s that personality that sees things as BLACK and WHITE that is going to be SHOCKED and deeply offended by this whole thing [the whitewashing of historical issues]. It’s a personality that can’t tolerate ambiguity and realize that people get caught in situations and there are all sorts of strange things that come out – that is going to feel like “you’ve got to lay down the law one way or another” and “the church has failed to do that” so “while I was thoroughly devoted to it at one time in my absolutist way, I am now thoroughly against it in my absolutist way.” So I don’t know what to do about that kind of personality because they’re going to have troubles with the church, that’s quite true.Not to disparage the disillusioned person, but to acknowledge what creates the problems. I agree that much of the culture/tradition in the church seems to support, possibly even cultivate an absolutist view. On the other hand I think personal growth starts when we take ownership for our individual situation.
Personally, I realized that I was trying to hold onto “absolutist” ideals – and this magnified my difficulty with the church. After I realized that I needed to soften my expectations did I begin to comprehend how a “healing” between myself and the church could take place.
I do think a key difference between a Stage 3 “true” and a Stage 5 “true” is something alluded to at the beginning of the discussion. A Stage 3 view dismisses the truths of others as “deceptions” or “not true” rather than looking at all so-called revelations as humans interacting with the divine and attempting to comprehend it. Instead of rejecting the “other” it’s possible to see it all as valuable, human, universal, and divine. Profound stuff… thanks guys. I’m certainly not in Stage 5 yet, although I’m starting to imagine that the transition will be gradual for me. I think some parts of me think in Stage 5, but most of my is still coming to grips with the disillusionment itself (early stage 4). I think I’m starting to realize that acceptance of paradox is the key to moving on. I mean, basically I’m stating that it IS a paradox for the Church to be God’s one true path. It doesn’t make sense, but that’s ok, I suppose.
I’m still digesting everything… it would definitely be easier if the Church was more open to bottom-up correction, and admitting when things were mistakes, instead of trying to explain everything, but… I’m ok with how it is, too.
Just thinking… even though one can reengage with religion in Stage 5, aren’t you tempted to throw it all away and try to live without it? How many of you have done that for a while? There’s a part of me that loves to get rid of junk. It’s the part that throws away my stuff when I move, that pays off debts (because they are annoying, not because it’s the right thing to do), that tries to reorganize my schedule to cut out stuff I don’t need. That part of me thinks that if I won’t be condemned for it, I would be better off trying life without the Church, because I shouldn’t make life more complicated than it needs to be. That’s not the premise of this site, obviously, but many of you must have considered it, right?
Is it a given for you that God wants you to be active in religion, or that you must be spiritual?
I understand where you are coming from with these questions. I think most people on this site try to view the challenge to their faith as an experience from God designed to help them eventually develop a stronger faith (using Fowler’s Stage of faith as one paradigm in which to understand this journey). Reread the essay on how to stay on the front page of the StayLDS blog. Those are the principles espoused by this forum. During the early parts of stage four it is common for a person to feel the “dark night of the soul”, where a person frequently feels the need to question all of the underlying tenants of their faith. On the podcasts discussing Fowler’s stages of faith (linked on the StayLDS blog) they discuss a journey through athiesm and agnosticism. Once entering Stage 4, your journey becomes a very personal thing and it is up to you to take responsibility for it. No one can tell you what to do on that journey. You shouldn’t find much judging of your decisions on this site. You will need to decide what, if anything, in the church is impairing your progression on your faith journey. I think its important to mention that your faith journey doesn’t have to lead you back to your LDS faith, even in Stage 5. Many people decide to disengage with at least aspects of the church, if not the whole church, for a while to better understand what about belonging to the LDS faith helps their faith journey and what hinders it. I personally have definately felt some desire to disengage with the church some, but I also recognize that completely disengaging from the church will not necessarily simplify my life. By disengaging completly, there are a lot of other factors (family, social, etc.) that will become very complicated. I currently feel that a complete disengagement will hinder my journey do to all of those other complicating factors. But you should feel free to do whatever will help you on your faith journey. I think many on this site would suggest that you replace or supplement areas of your faith when you are disengaging from the LDS faith. Suggestions from the “How to Stay” essay include seeking God in nature if you are not seeking God through worship services, using tithing money for charities if you feel it is a hinderance to your faith to pay tithing to the LDS church, etc.
I think there are so many Stage 5 people on this site that some of these practical suggestions from the “How to Stay” essay are forgotten in the forum. There’s a lot of great advice in there for the Stage 4 people. Do what you feel will help you most, and don’t be afraid to experiment.
Hi Sean and welcome As you have already seen most of us on the board are in the same struggle as you and can sympathize with all our hearts. I will do the required (someone here always does so I guess it is my turn) reccommendation that you look into the James Fowler Stages of Faith threads here on the board. You are moving from his third level of a “true believer” into a more complex reality where you will hopefully end up with a more nuanced faith that can sustain you.
As Old-Timer often points out for us when we react to the difficult issues about the church we still have a tendancy to want to hold onto that “true believer” status and we frame out resistance and trouble with the Church into simpler categories. Your quote:
Quote:So, that’s my dilemma. It seems that either the Church is only as true as a thousand other paths are, and God doesn’t really care what path we follow, or it’s the result of cult psychology, and there is no right path (only many wrong ones). I don’t know how to reconcile it. I’m very open to the idea that my logic is wrong, and there’s a way for the Church to be the one true path, but I don’t see it.
You’ve outlined here only two paths: a) the Church is one path among many OR b) its a cult. I completely understand and feel the pain of this, I absolutely hate polygamy and sincerely wish it had never happened in the Church but there are more ways of seeing the issue than the two you have outlined. I don’t really want to get into all of the possibilites right here, this is an introduction thread but for example there is a real possibility that Heavenly Father had a specific cadre of human beings on the earth ready to take up the gospel along with Joseph Smith (the early conversions out of England are a good example, almost whole congregations converting and then setting sail for America) and He knew that from these people would come the leadership core that would get the Church through the first century of its life. So polygamy was way of insuring that the people were available when needed in the 1890s and beyond as the first set of leadership died out. Now I don’t say that this is right, just a thought but another way of seeing that polygamy wasn’t necessarily about sex but about survival.
The key suggestion always is, take it slow, don’t make any drastic changes, there is so much that is good in the Church and your family life is currently built around that so messing with the Church is messing with a loving and effective marriage so be very careful and thoughtful.
Again welcome, we are all struggling, will continue to struggle no doubt but it is worth it. Because of my faith crises I have shed a basic underlying level of racism I was ignoring and an almost virulent homophobia, I am a better person and I wouldn’t go back to the old TBM.
Bill Atkinson wrote:The key suggestion always is, take it slow, don’t make any drastic changes, there is so much that is good in the Church and your family life is currently built around that so messing with the Church is messing with a loving and effective marriage so be very careful and thoughtful.
Yes, I neglected that very useful advice – go SLOW! I whole-heartedly endorse such suggestions.
I regularly have to tell myself, “You don’t have to make any concrete decisions today.” Some days I want to drop everything and run from the church, but I keep trying to remind myself to take things slow. Seven weeks ago I was TBM, and it’s only been about 4-5 weeks that I’ve actually been struggling with things, so I may not be the best example of taking things slowly. Of course, sometimes it seems things are conspiring against me, as my temple recommend just expired and I need to make a decision about what to do . . .
seanhess wrote:Just thinking… even though one can reengage with religion in Stage 5, aren’t you tempted to throw it all away and try to live without it? How many of you have done that for a while?
There’s a part of me that loves to get rid of junk. It’s the part that throws away my stuff when I move, that pays off debts (because they are annoying, not because it’s the right thing to do), that tries to reorganize my schedule to cut out stuff I don’t need. That part of me thinks that if I won’t be condemned for it, I would be better off trying life without the Church, because I shouldn’t make life more complicated than it needs to be. That’s not the premise of this site, obviously, but many of you must have considered it, right?
sean, yes, I have considered it, decided not to go that route, then reconsidered it and still reconsider it.I guess what I’ve started doing is “getting rid of the junk” that is distracting me from coming to greater peace in my life. That doesn’t mean I need to throw everything away and renounce my membership because of my issues. I simply hold on to those things that are dear to me and make me feel happier and help my family, and put the rest on the shelf for a while and will decide later if I revisit them or not.
The key for me has been allowing myself to doubt things and search for deeper meaning to principles that help me be a better person, while letting go of guilt and fear I may be the dreaded apostate mormon going to hell for wavering. I no longer view myself as wavering (with a negative conotation), but beleive I’m journeying (with a hopeful and positive outlook)…so I might as well get on to doing the best journeying I can and enjoy the ride and learn from the experience. I don’t know that I’m a better mormon right now…but I do believe I’m becoming a better person and eventually I think that will help me be a better mormon when I’ve worked through some things.
That’s why I like Mr Curie’s advice to go slow and not feel you have to throw it all out as “junk” just because you’ve headed into stage 4. Sometimes taking a short break has helped me, and after only a couple weeks…I miss being back in that LDS community and I realize how many things I still love about the church, and I can keep it in better perspective for me personally in being spiritual and being part of religion. I think there are good things in both of those things that God wants me to be a part of.
Very good advice. Making hasty decisions can be bad. Now, I’m taking your advice to heart, but to be thorough, here’s one more thing I’m thinking. I definitely don’t want to burn any bridges (remove my name from the records of the church, or announce my apostasy to my family), but in general I learn things about life by trying them. When I couldn’t pick a major in college, I just tried some until I found one that worked. I just quit my job because I
thinkstarting a business is a good next step. I’ll know whether or not it was after I try it for a while. But it’s not like I’m going to drive myself to ruin because I’m trying it. The worst thing that can happen is I will be poor and get another job in a year (no debt/capital needed). So when I say I’m considering stepping away from the church, it’s not like I couldn’t change my mind. I might even continue to make an appearance at church. Might doing that be the same as trying out a job or career? Things aren’t as permanent as they sometimes seem.
If we were victims of group-think, wouldn’t stepping away be the
onlyway we could come to grips with reality? Again, I learn a lot by putting an argument through its paces, so don’t think I’m disagreeing with your excellent advice, I just want to know how you think through everything.
Quote:Is it a given for you that God wants you to be active in religion, or that you must be spiritual?
I wouldn’t say it’s a given, but I would suggest the following analogy. Religion provides a framework, like living in a house. Spirituality is more open, like sleeping under the stars. While both are good, there are times when living in a house is best. Personally, I think the trick is to be able to be comfortable both in the house, camping in the backyard, or out in the wilderness somewhere. But either way, it’s not the same as who you are. It’s just a framework (or lack thereof).
hawkgrrrl wrote:Quote:Is it a given for you that God wants you to be active in religion, or that you must be spiritual?
I wouldn’t say it’s a given, but I would suggest the following analogy. Religion provides a framework, like living in a house. Spirituality is more open, like sleeping under the stars. While both are good, there are times when living in a house is best. Personally, I think the trick is to be able to be comfortable both in the house, camping in the backyard, or out in the wilderness somewhere. But either way, it’s not the same as who you are. It’s just a framework (or lack thereof).
Beautiful. I’m keeping a collection of Hawk’s pearls of awesomeness. Going to publish it under my own name and make millions.
I totally agree. I’d also add that as we get closer to god and develop ourselves more profoundly there can blossum within us a deeper charity, a desire to love and help and support, etc.
The structure of a church exists, primarily, to allow for greater access to giving and receiving love. I think as one ‘ascends’ the ladder of spiritual growth, one can be very drawn to a church structure, but for very new reasons.
Used to be the structure of church was the fortress of the the righteous. But it’s supposed to be massive group therapy, and it already is if we can start using it more correctly.
seanhess wrote:So when I say I’m considering stepping away from the church, it’s not like I couldn’t change my mind. I might even continue to make an appearance at church. Might doing that be the same as trying out a job or career? Things aren’t as permanent as they sometimes seem.
I assume by stepping away, you mean not going to church on Sunday for a few weeks to see how that feels?I remember someone months back (either Valoel, Orson, or Tom Haws) tell me that sometimes that break is good for us, but when deciding, you should look at what you trading, and ask yourself if you are “Trading Up”? If you are not going to attend church…are you going to go do something else spiritual during that time? If you’re trading down, you may want to stay in church and find something else to trade to meet your spiritual needs.
What would you do with your time if you “stepped away” for a while? Do you know?
seanhess wrote:…basically I’m stating that it IS a paradox for the Church to be God’s one true path. It doesn’t make sense, but that’s ok, I suppose.
One individual, one path headed in the general direction of the goal.“I can’t speak for anyone else, but the church is right for ME” (with the complex objectives of MY personal life).
seanhess wrote:If we were victims of group-think, wouldn’t stepping away be the
onlyway we could come to grips with reality? Yes and no. Consider the possibility that you hop from one group to another – the story flips but the influence stays the same.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.