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Are we like those “who placed themselves in serious jeopardy in spiritual things because they were unwilling to accept simple, basic principles of truth…They were apparently afflicted with a pseudosophistication and a snobbishness that gave them a false sense of superiority over those who came among them with the Lord’s words of plainness. They went beyond the mark of wisdom and prudence, and obviously failed to stay within the circle of fundamental gospel truths, which provide a basis for faith. They must have reveled in speculative and theoretical matters that obscured for them the fundamental spiritual truths. As they became infatuated by these ‘things that they could not understand,’ their comprehension of and faith in the redeeming role of a true Messiah was lost, and the purpose of life became confused.” Paul warned: “For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
“And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables” (2 Tim. 4:2–4).
I am not going to be like that anymore. “I am going to give more time and attention to the study and pondering of the scriptures themselves, rather than to the commentaries and criticisms that others have written about them.”
I will be “more concerned about understanding the admonitions of Samuel the Lamanite as he stood on the walls of the city of Zarahemla and called the rebellious Nephites to repentance than I am about identifying the location of that city in today’s geography.”
“I am more vitally interested in what the Father and the Son commissioned Joseph Smith to do, and the fruits of his prophetic labors, than I am in whether he made mention of one divine personage or two in his initial recounting of the First Vision.”
“I am going to try to be more earnest in teaching what the Savior would have me teach and be less concerned about having my own biases aired. If I am going to influence others, I want to influence them toward the things that promote faith rather than to unsettle them with speculation and questions that cannot be resolved.”
Joseph Smith was sealed to women who had a living husband, and I believe he was a prophet of God and was the instrument used to restore the Gospel.
Brigham Young would not allow black men to hold the priesthood, and I believe he was a prophet of God who led the Saints west and was great leader.
Wilford Woodruff was inspired to put an end to polygamy and 1978 was the right year to end the priesthood ban.
The Spirit melts doubt and confusion away when I focus on the plain and glorious truths of the Gospel. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-days is the only true and living church on the earth.
I have had many questions and came here for help STAYING in the Church. What I found was people wallowing in the mud and feeding the doubt. This site has hurt me, not helped me. This site encourages each other to be a jack Mormon, choosing which principles, doctrines, and practices to follow. All we have to do is focus on the “fundamental gospel truths, which provide a basis for faith.”
I know I won’t win friends for this post. I hope all of you leave this forum. I wish the best for each of you.
-Quotes taken from
http://www.lds.org/general-conference/1987/10/looking-beyond-the-mark?lang=eng Shawn wrote:Are we like those “who placed themselves in serious jeopardy in spiritual things because they were unwilling to accept simple, basic principles of truth…
The Spirit melts doubt and confusion away when I focus on the plain and glorious truths of the Gospel.The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-days is the only true and living church on the earth. -sigh-Oh, you mean like the need to wear a white shirt, only one pair of earrings, and god forbid one drinks a cup of tea etc etc? You are absolutely correct sir, we in this church are certainly guilty of looking beyond the mark.
Shawn wrote:….
I hope all of you leave this forum. I wish the best for each of you. “In the before the lock!” – The Beast
🙂 It’s nothing personal Shawn. It just doesn’t work that way for all of us. The black and white, and one size fits all approach, just doesn’t work for some. I’m glad it works for you…I hope it works for you, and if you are comfortable and can fit in the box with the LDS membership…I envy you. I really do.
This site is designed to help people navigate the middle way . Not wallow in the mud and be jack mormons. There is a huge difference.
You gave your testimony in this thread, now let you me give you mine…”I testify” that without the StayLDS website, I would have resigned from the Mormon church a year ago. That is a fact. I’m still a member, attend occasionally, and hope to become more active sometime in the future.
Quote:…The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-days is the only true and living church on the earth….
😥 -sigh-I am very sad that we still hear this in the LDS church. Best of luck of Shawn. Wow. I real bombshell of a post there… 😯 I would like to create a discussion out of this, if possible. I think it
couldbe productive BUTonly if we keep it constructive and respectful. Shawn, I really wish you well. You probably aren’t a good fit for this community though. That’s fine. If you hold to more traditional views and belief, I respect that (just like Cwald mentioned above). If you can make it work, run with it. Don’t look back. It is by FAR the better way, so long as you can make it work. You have the entire organization of the LDS Church as a support structure, with all their resources and materials. Power to you brother! I mean that with respect and love.
We wouldn’t want to change you or pull you out of that safety zone. Follow all that advice you gave in your post. Stick to the basics of the Gospel of Jesus Christ: faith, repentance, baptism and receiving the sanctifying experience of the Holy Ghost. We are not trying to recruit anyone. We don’t have a new one-and-only, new/true answer to give. We are doing the best we can to reach out and support our brothers and sisters who did not find your simple solution satisfying or workable. We know already. We’ve heard the conference talks. I was attending BYU when that talk was given.
I hope that the responses that follow will show the same respect. Your post will be seen as a “call to repentance” that is not unfamiliar. It generally brings a storm of back lash. It isn’t very helpful. It doesn’t come across as humble or even understanding. Many people from our perspective see the same prideful and speculative hubris coming in the reverse direction — focus on unimportant cultural minutiae instead of the “weightier matters” (and more difficult) such as compassion.
It seem easier to just throw people away than answer their questions. If there aren’t any good answers, then let’s keep asking the tough questions and figure it out. That is how we continue on in eternal progression … not by closing our eyes and going to sleep, pretending that all is well in Zion, that there isn’t a problem if we just ignore the questions.
Shawn wrote:All we have to do is focus on the “fundamental gospel truths, which provide a basis for faith.”
If by fundamental gospel truths, you mean things like the core universal Gospel principles of LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up – (list plagiarized from Ray) then I completely agree with you. I find that for every well written scholarly LDS historical book that I read, I must read at least that much in sources that bring me the spirit in order to keep myself in balance.
But your post could have been written about the LDS general population as well. Aren’t we so invested with the “one true church” position, the historicity of the BOM, and the succession process for the new prophet that we miss the mark of the Savior’s teachings and example towards us.
I understand that you may find contentment in a “the LDS church is the Way and as long as I hitch myself to the main body, it will be well with me” approach. I believe that there are many that find peace and joy in this position. They may live and die on that ground and I believe that HF will accept the sum of their labors as good and profitable. I believe that even those that miss the mark in their zealousness will be lovingly shown the error of their ways and they will take their place in the family of God. I pray that I, as a loyal doubter or faithful dissenter or just a man trying to make sense of it all and lead my family forward in righteousness the best way I know how – will receive similar loving correction and mercy in the end.
Shawn wrote:I have had many questions and came here for help STAYING in the Church. What I found was people wallowing in the mud and feeding the doubt. This site has hurt me, not helped me. This site encourages each other to be a jack Mormon, choosing which principles, doctrines, and practices to follow.
I also agree that sometimes people who visit here can be exposed to different questions and perspectives that they never would have considered on their own this may serve to hasten the collapse of the shelf. While there are several different approaches to maintaining a relationship in the church discussed here, we also do tend to gravitate to certain central themes. I know that I have incorporated some of these themes into my own thought processes and they have allowed me to be at peace with myself and my fellowmen both in and out of the church. But I don’t expect that this will work for all. Perhaps there are a range of other “helps” – from just reading the scriptures and praying to visiting FARMS and other apologetic websites to NOM and even Ex-Mo and others that may be useful to some people at some point in their lives but not as helpful for others.
In the end, leaving this forum – especially if it is not helping but rather hurting your goals and progress – is not a bad thing and does not make you my enemy. I hope that you find much love and joy in your path.
Sincerely,
Roy
Shawn, you wrote: Quote:I have had many questions and came here for help STAYING in the Church. What I found was people wallowing in the mud and feeding the doubt. This site has hurt me, not helped me. This site encourages each other to be a jack Mormon, choosing which principles, doctrines, and practices to follow. All we have to do is focus on the “fundamental gospel truths, which provide a basis for faith.”
I, for one, came to this site completely inactive & convinced that the best thing for me to do was have my name removed from the roles of the church.
It was this site that encouraged me to stay within the church & find my own way. That is what I’m trying to do. Over the past year, I’ve:
a. started to attend my meetings again.
b. started to pay tithing again.
c. started doing volunteer work again.
d. started to do HT again.
A couple months ago, a member of the Stake Presidency interviewed my wife & me. At the end, his conclusioning remark was: when are you planning to go to the temple again? A couple weeks ago, our Bishop asked the same question. Along the way, I’ve had good Home Teachers that were patient & very kind also.
There is something about this site & the chance to speak openly (annonymously) about all types of topics. With all types of view points.
I don’t accept all points of view or topics presented.
This forum will not answer the key questions for you. I’m convinced that the Church leadership can’t do that for us either.
All they can do is tell us what works for them & we have to do the work for ourselves.
The best advise I can give (in any situation) is: use what works for you & leave the rest.
I wish you the best that God has to offer. No matter what path you choose to take.
For me, I choose to stay on this site. At least for now.
Mike from Milton.
Quote:But your post could have been written about the LDS general population as well. Aren’t we so invested with the “one true church” position, the historicity of the BOM, and the succession process for the new prophet that we miss the mark of the Savior’s teachings and example towards us.
YES YES YES!
Grant Palmer made the comment that people need to read the life of Jesus and the New Testament, and view their own lives, the church and the church leaders through
IT’Sinterpretation, rather then the way we have been taught which is to read the New Testament and the life of Jesus, through the interpretation of the church and it’s leaders.It really is a profound moment of clarity.
When I did that, this whole concept of “looking beyond the mark” really takes on such a different meaning than the one I learned in Sunday School. Almost EVERY argument and criticism the church uses against “me,” NOMs, apostates and the concept of “middle way” paths…can be used against itself when viewed from Jesus and the NT perspective.
Most of the truths we cling to are really only true from a certain perspective. Right Heber?
Take the whole wallowing in mud and lukewarm rhetoric that gets flung at us so often. Well, that is not how I read the bible. I would say, that the NT and Jesus are talking to LDS church members who just go merely on their way and don’t take the time and energy to really dig into spirituality, but just listen to their prophets and do what they are told and accept it, even if it doesn’t make sense and seems wrong, and are so concerned about defending “the one true church” as an institution. That just seems so lukewarm to me.
I’m searching….deeply, and I am far far from being lukewarm on the path that I have chosen. Sure, I might drink a beer and refuse to wear a white shirt, and even garments for that matter (I use to do those things when I “looked beyond mark,” ) but when it comes to finding personal relationships with the gods, I’m pretty “hot.”
🙂 It matters to me…it’s important to me. It is what matters most. The church institution, not so much.I wish you joy and happiness in the path that will bring it to you – and I am over-joyed that the path that brings it to you is the LDS Church. My heart is happy for you – truly, deeply, passionately happy for you. I also find my joy and happiness with the LDS Church – and in my own studies and searching for truth – and here at this site as I minister and am ministered to. I love both the LDS Church and StayLDS. I know this group can’t help everyone. It wasn’t formed to do so. There are people I would NEVER recommend come here, since what we discuss and how we discuss it would hurt more than help them. Since you appear to be one of those people, I am glad you are discontinuing your participation here – but I am gald sepcifically because I am glad your don’t need what we offer. For MANY people, the ideal truly is to never need what we offer here. I know that – and I also am happy that is the case.
God bless you, brother. Truly, may God continue to bless you.
I really appreciate the respect. I hope no one thinks I
onlyfocused on the fundamental gospel truths. I know that it doesn’t simply work that way for everyone. I have asked the questions. I have read many “ex-mormon” stories and “apostimonies.” After much research, I thought about leaving the church. I always remained “active” to help my wife with the kids. I was eventually blessed with the Spirit and my concerns melted away. Quote:Roy: But your post could have been written about the LDS general population as well. Aren’t we so invested with the “one true church” position, the historicity of the BOM, and the succession process for the new prophet that we miss the mark of the Savior’s teachings and example towards us.
I disagree. I don’t believe the membership in general obsesses over those things to the point that the Savior’s teachings are overlooked.
Quote:Roy: I also agree that sometimes people who visit here can be exposed to different questions and perspectives that they never would have considered on their own this may serve to hasten the collapse of the shelf.
This site actually didn’t expose me to anything I hadn’t heard before. In fact, now that I’ve thought about it more, I can’t really say that this site hurt me. I would like to retract that part of my original post.
Mike, I am glad this site has helped you. I really think that there are better forums, though. I would study fairmormon.com also.
Shawn wrote:I really think that there are better forums, though. I would study fairmormon.com also.
We link to FAIR from our main page, also to FARMS and Mormon Fortress. Everyone should go and get information from those sources too. They should get a variety of perspectives.
Shawn wrote:Quote:Roy: But your post could have been written about the LDS general population as well. Aren’t we so invested with the “one true church” position, the historicity of the BOM, and the succession process for the new prophet that we miss the mark of the Savior’s teachings and example towards us.
I disagree. I don’t believe the membership in general obsesses over those things to the point that the Savior’s teachings are overlooked.
I believe I was hasty in my generalization. After rereading my statement I can see how it can seem that I was saying that all LDS people look beyond the mark. That was not my intent. My intent is to say that there are “those things” in the LDS church that are not fundamental Gospel truths. They may be tangential to gospel truths, or “hedges built around the law”, or just necessary administrative processes for running a large multi-national organization. At church sometimes they are all mixed up in the same package as core gospel principles and I believe that some people (myself included at times) focus on the tangential periphery and miss the mark. Sometimes groups of people trend towards these distractions together and then may “miss the mark” more or less collectively. I believe that this is partly why some wards have such a different spirit than others.
I believe that it is the responsibility of each of us to sift out what is core from what is not. Not because the tangential is necessarily bad (FAIR and FARMS deal mostly with tangential speculative issues), but because it should never supplant our focus, The Rock of our Redeemer and Only Sure Foundation. I believe that our LDS leaders have been sending us variations on this message for some time – in the talk that you quote from and most recently by President Uchtdorf:
Quote:“But this may present a problem for some because there are so many ‘shoulds’ and ‘should nots’ that merely keeping track of them can be a challenge. Sometimes, well-meaning amplifications of divine principles–many coming from uninspired sources–complicate matters further, diluting the purity of divine truth with man-made addenda. One person’s good idea–something that may work for him or her–takes root and becomes an expectation. And gradually, eternal principles can get lost within the labyrinth of ‘good ideas.’
“This was one of the Savior’s criticisms of the religious ‘experts’ of His day, whom He chastised for attending to the hundreds of minor details of the law while neglecting the weightier matters.”
In Mormon culture there are many things that are nice but not necessary. We cling to traditions that really have nothing to do with our eternal salvation, but it’s “always been done that way,” so we continue doing it that way. Perhaps we should all examine our lives and prayerfully consider if we are doing things out of tradition that are actually taking us away from focusing on the basics of the Gospel. Clinging to traditions will not ultimately save us if they are distracting us from the “weightier matters.”
This sifting or distillment process is good and is ultimately a personal journey.
I don’t get your last post Shawn…what was your motivation for starting this thread in the first place? What message do you want us to take away from this? Jumping in here a little late, but am going to go ahead and post my thoughts as I read Shawn’s first post. Shawn, you are obviously struggling in some ways or you wouldn’t have come to explore this site and read enough to draw conclusions. If doing those things you listed worked, you would have already worked this out and not needed this site. What Ray said is true, we do minister to each other. I have ministered to those who weren’t in attendance regularly for years, before I found this site and after. They always knew they were safe to tell me their concerns. When my challenge came, I discovered there were few I could safely express concerns to. I did not want to weaken the testimony of anyone else. I could probably write a book over our family’s challenges in this church. Shawn, what are you struggling with specifically so that we can know how best to minister to you?
I don’t always agree with everything posted here. I am sure none of us do. That’s the point. We share our different perspectives and hopefully the Spirit will guide us to share things that will help others. I often felt the Spirit was working through Ray, Brian, Silent Dawning, Heber13, Hawkgirl, CWald, Tom Haws?, and many others over the years to answer specific cries from my heart.It is my prayer that we can help you too. I take the nuggets of gold I need from this site. I don’t collect the rocks that will just make my pack harder to carry.
🙂 Just an addendum: the names I listed are the ones I remember going years back while I was lurking. I didn’t mean to leave anyone out. You are all wonderful and have given me much food for thought! Quote:Shawn, you are obviously struggling in some ways or you wouldn’t have come to explore this site and read enough to draw conclusions. If doing those things you listed worked, you would have already worked this out and not needed this site.
I just want to point out that we have a lot of people who visit and read but never comment – and many of them are here in a sincere attempt to understand and (online or in person) help those who struggle, not because they are struggling themselves.
We really can be hard to understand sometimes(and that might be the biggest under-statement in the history of this site) – and it’s not obvious immediately that some of us are fully active members (and even local leaders) of the Church. 🙂 Just a gentle reminder that what appears obvious to us often isn’t as simple as we think.
:thumbup:
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