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I have to follow the path that is most likely correct after weighing the evidence and really thinking hard about it. Personally If I were just to focus on some core teaching and ignore all the evidence swirling around me to the contrary, I do not believe that would be an honest way to approach things. Sure I can ignore troublesome stuff and think about Jesus all the time but that does not get me any closer to what reality is. It may make me feel good and if that is the objective then I say by all means go for it. For me living an authentic existence regardless of what I want to believe is more important than feeling good. As I was reading the original post I had a few thoughts come to mind. I think I’m coming from a totally different place, but I do agree that in trying to sort out all of the details we can forget core principles. I’m really trying hard to keep a sense of hope, love, and charity in my heart as I’m going through my faith journey. When you feel so disillusioned with religion in general, it can take a lot of effort to keep spiritually afloat. I would like to point out that for me personally, and for many others on this site, knowing that Joseph Smith was a prophet or even that Jesus is our Savior are not “basic principles”. When you have just had your world crash down around you and are unsure if God exists, or if there is even meaning to the universe, accepting the Book of Mormon as the word of God is a pretty high rung on the ladder. This site has been a huge support to me in my struggles, but I recognize it is not a good fit for everyone.
cwald wrote:Most of the truths we cling to are really only true from a certain perspective. Right Heber?
So says Obi-Wan!
I, for one, want to thank Shawn for this thread. It is a good thing for me to think about. It would have been easier for Shawn to just leave and not make any other posts, but he had the courage to share his experience and thoughts. Thank you Shawn, I think that makes the discussions more vibrant, rather than only sharing the posts that agree with the GroupThink.
:clap: – can we not have a discussion with differing views? I would hope so. I hope Shawn feels welcome to stay and discuss with us. But if you find it harmful to you, then it may not be good to stick around. But think about why and what makes it something unhealthy for you. That reflection can provide learning.So, are we “looking beyond the mark”? If so, I would question why I stay here. Because my goal is to look towards Christ…and look for peace in my life. Long ago, when I started my journey, I came across a Mauri proverb:
Quote:Look towards the sun, and the shadows fall behind you.
I want to look to the source of truth and let problems fall behind me, and be open to whatever or wherever that leads me (not fearing truth as I find it), even if it uncomfortably leads me to think differently than my local church leaders that worry about my pride and my intellectual reasoning that may cloud my judgment and block the Spirit from my mind. But it is not how I feel. Am I supposed to take their word and their inspiration over my own? That is not gospel doctrine.
Should I not seriously consider if Shawn perhaps sees something that I should pay attention to?
Absolutely I should consider that, and consider if this website is harmful to my spiritual growth, or my relationships with family and especially with God. I often asked myself if I was looking beyond the mark (see an example of this in one good discussion about comparing Jewish followers to Mormon followers here:
http://www.staylds.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=500http://www.staylds.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=500” class=”bbcode_url”> I’m interested in hearing more from Shawn on how this works:
Shawn wrote:All we have to do is focus on the “fundamental gospel truths, which provide a basis for faith.”
and how that reconciles with D&C 9:7-9.
I also think an excellent source of thought fodder is Neal A. Maxwell’s conference talk, where he acknowledges the good from sources outside the church while being confident of the fulness of the gospel found in this church:
Quote:My aim, therefore, is internal instruction, not external persuasion, since we fully understand that certain of our beliefs are not shared by others and vice versa. But goodwill can still prevail. In fact, with you, brothers and sisters, I rejoice in the good works and the voices of faith of many in other religions. For instance, recent papal pronouncements on chastity are both appropriate and courageous, and I applaud them. So many honorable individuals in the world do so much without what we, as members, call gospel fulness, while some of us, unfortunately, do so little with so much!
October 1993, “From the Beginning”
http://www.lds.org/general-conference/1993/10/from-the-beginning?lang=eng ” class=”bbcode_url”> http://www.lds.org/general-conference/1993/10/from-the-beginning?lang=eng In another section of his address, Elder Maxwell states:
Quote:Many fell away from the gospel and its “plain and precious” truths (1 Ne. 13:40). It was too simple. They preferred “looking beyond the mark” and searching for things “they could not understand” (Jacob 4:14).
The Apostle John denounced anti-Christs who taught that Jesus hadn’t really come “in the flesh” (1 Jn. 4:3), implying that Jesus’ bodily appearance was an illusion designed to accommodate mortal incapacities (see John 1:1–3, 14).
Another hellenistic form of “looking beyond the mark” was interpreting clear, historical events as allegorical. These early denials of Jesus’ historicity are replicated in our day.
Reason, the Greek philosophical tradition, dominated, then supplanted, reliance on revelation, an outcome probably hastened by well-intentioned Christians wishing to bring their beliefs into the mainstream of contemporary culture.
Does this prick anyone’s heart? Are we following these hellenistic forms and moving away from “plan and precious” truths? Are we trying to be mainstream in our culture? What is our motive, what is in our hearts?They are fair questions. I am open to discussion on how that could be so…if my heart is striving to find truth, if I am asking the spirit to guide me, if I am humbling myself to seek ways to be tolerant and accepting of all viewpoints.
leavingthecave said it very well:
Quote:When you have just had your world crash down around you and are unsure if God exists, or if there is even meaning to the universe, accepting the Book of Mormon as the word of God is a pretty high rung on the ladder.
My grandfather taught me a very important lesson. He was a wonderful bishop and stake president, and counseled many many people who came to him about depression and mental illness. His counsel to them, from his perspective, was that if they would work harder, serve more, forget themselves in the work of the Lord and pray to God…they wouldn’t be so pre-occupied with their problems and they would not be so sad. But then, he got cancer. He suffered through chemo, and he fell into a deep depressed state that psychologically he could not control. After coming out of all that, and battling his way through, he found he was a different person. He told me and my mom, “I wish I could go back and counsel those families again about depression. I now understand, it is not so simple. They really can’t just follow the gospel principles and pray and read. These things go deeper. Now I understand.”Perhaps, Shawn, it really is about our points of view, from where we stand. For some, questioning some things and having doubt is dangerous to where they are in their faith. Perhaps to others, it is their mustard seed of faith…or their widow’s mite of faith…it is all they have from their perspective. If it is honest and sincere, not deceptive and trying to justify “Jack Mormon” lifestyles…perhaps God accepts that offering of planting the seed they have (Alma 32). We are not all in the same place, looking at the same light, and don’t all see only black and white…but the rainbow of goodness in our world.
President Uchtodorf talked about the 2-word sermon on judging others. I am grateful we have leaders with prophetic words to teach us these things.
I believe Shawn’s view is valid. I also think Brian receives regular “Thank You” emails for this site helping others work through their faith crisis. There is no “One Universal Way” – and StayLDS.com is not the way for all. Those are my thoughts.
Hmmm. All this activity on one thread in one day. Interesting. I am impressed with civility, the kindness, and the clarity with which people here express views. Something about online fora allows the worst in humanity to come out, yet here we see the best– people disagreeing with magnanimity and respect for each other…
cwald wrote:Shawn wrote:Are we like those “who placed themselves in serious jeopardy in spiritual things because they were unwilling to accept simple, basic principles of truth…
The Spirit melts doubt and confusion away when I focus on the plain and glorious truths of the Gospel.The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-days is the only true and living church on the earth. -sigh-Oh, you mean like the need to wear a white shirt, only one pair of earrings, and god forbid one drinks a cup of tea etc etc? You are absolutely correct sir, we in this church are certainly guilty of looking beyond the mark.
I completely agree with cwald on this. To say the Church is the only true and living church is looking well beyond the mark and worshipping the creation rather than the creator. This is idolatry.The Church is not the Way. Jesus said, “I AM the Way, the Truth, and the Life.” Those that place the Church at the center and insist that it only can save are looking beyond the mark.
Scriptures are not the Truth. To Pharisees that insisted that the Scriptures were the only source of Truth and Life, and studied them endlessly, Jesus said, “Ye search the scriptures, for in them ye think ye have eternal life, but they do not, because scriptures testify of me, and ‘I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life.'” Those that insist on endless searching of scripture are looking beyond the mark.
Jesus was a man fully grounded in the Way, the very ground of being. Because he was fully one with the way, he was fully god and fully man. He spoke of those, too, who as humans who are one with the Word as being gods, and children of the most high, and he prayed that we, too, might be one with god through following the Way.
The Way is the very power of god, and if you look in the heavens, or in the the Way of nature, you are seeing god in his majesty and power. These are not my words, but the words of scripture: see section 88.
The Way is that which is exists in the midst of Church. It is the Gospel, all truth to which some teachings point, and others look beyond the mark. When we love one another, we are on the mark, on the Way. When we judge one another based on their shirt color, we are looking beyond the mark. When we preach of love, we are preaching the Way. When we preach of fear of the world and the evils of those who see things differently, we are looking beyond the mark. When we inclusively reach out to our neighbors and enemies in love, we are on the Way. When we proudly proclaim we are the one true and living church, we are looking beyond the mark.
God is not found in the earthquake, in the blaring trumpets of apologists, in the zealous proclamations of those who condemn. God is not in the extremes. God is found in the midst, the middle of all things, the still, small voice at the center of our souls and very being.
This is the divine center–the Middle Way: that we have a divine nature, and by knowing that, becoming one with our divine selves, we can connect with others in love and lead them to the Way, the Truth, and the Life. This is the Way we follow Jesus. This is the Way for us to be “even as I AM”.
Be still and know that I AM god.
This is the Way, walk ye in it.
wayfarer wrote:
The Way is that which is exists in the midst of Church. It is the Gospel, all truth to which some teachings point, and others look beyond the mark. When we love one another, we are on the mark, on the Way. When we judge one another based on their shirt color, we are looking beyond the mark. When we preach of love, we are preaching the Way. When we preach of fear of the world and the evils of those who see things differently, we are looking beyond the mark. When we inclusively reach out to our neighbors and enemies in love, we are on the Way. When we proudly proclaim we are the one true and living church, we are looking beyond the mark.God is not found in the earthquake, in the blaring trumpets of apologists, in the zealous proclamations of those who condemn. God is not in the extremes. God is found in the midst, the middle of all things, the still, small voice at the center of our souls and very being.
This is the divine center–the Middle Way: that we have a divine nature, and by knowing that, becoming one with our divine selves, we can connect with others in love and lead them to the Way, the Truth, and the Life. This is the Way we follow Jesus. This is the Way for us to be “even as I AM”.
Be still and know that I AM god.
This is the Way, walk ye in it.
Nice.
🙂 Wayfarer, thank you! Very inspiring! wayfarer wrote:Scriptures are not the Truth. To Pharisees that insisted that the Scriptures were the only source of Truth and Life, and studied them endlessly, Jesus said, “Ye search the scriptures, for in them ye think ye have eternal life, but they do not, because scriptures testify of me, and ‘I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life.'” Those that insist on endless searching of scripture are looking beyond the mark.
Good point, wayfarer. And yet, at the same time, Jesus was extremely well versed in the scriptures. He studied them, he knew them. In the temple as a boy, he expounded on them to the amazement of his elders.
Studying the scriptures diligently is not the sign of looking beyond the mark, any more than blogging is. It seems to me it is what we do with the knowledge, or how we expound it and apply it in our lives, or how open we are to the Spirit to guide us instead of clinging to an iron rod without ever looking around to see the world around us. Looking beyond the mark is failing to really know why we cling to the rod, or why the commandments are there to help us, but focuses too much on the clinging and the commandments themselves for the approval of others instead of the approval of God. Or perhaps that is looking short of the mark, which can be equally limiting as the person looking beyond the mark.
I believe the difference between wayfaring for the soul and looking beyond the mark is the intentions of the heart of the individual. And because people cannot see into the hearts of others, it may very well look like the same thing on the outside.
As Ray said, we can be hard to understand if we have spent years coming to our point of view. We can’t expect in one post or a few paragraphs to adequately articulate our feelings to the acceptance of others that come from a very different point of view. But it doesn’t mean we are wrong, or should not share our thoughts. How else can we come to an understanding if we don’t attempt to have the conversation?
Is this searching and blogging helping us come closer to “God”, increasing our capacity to love others, and bringing true peace in our lives, or is it pulling us away from goodness and putting us in shackles of selfishness and providing excuses to sin and redefine church to our selfish nuanced view? Perhaps it is by the fruits we know the difference.
Elder Stephen L. Richards taught in the 102nd annual General Conference (April 1932):
Quote:I am not afraid of change: it is the mother of growth.
But even more important than change of conception, form and procedure in our church as in any society, is change of attitude. How do we feel about things? Have more education, more knowledge, and wider experience broadened our sympathies or contracted them?
If I am ever allowed to speak in SM again, I will pretty well just read wayfarer’s last post and sit down. Sent from my SCH-I500 using Tapatalk 2
Roy, thank you for your clarification about LDS people looking beyond the mark. cwald wrote:I don’t get your last post Shawn…what was your motivation for starting this thread in the first place? What message do you want us to take away from this?
I was blessed to have a Spiritual witness during church on Sunday. It came while sharing an experience from my mission (which was 12 years ago). I had been asking all the questions about accounts of the First Vision, polygamy, restricting who holds the priesthood, and many others. I had been ruminating over them.The witness I received really made my concerns go away. I felt at peace with everything.That night, my family happened to read Jacob 4, wherein Jacob says:
Quote:14 But behold, the Jews were a stiffnecked people; and they despised the words of plainness, and killed the prophets, and sought for things that they could not understand. Wherefore, because of their blindness, which blindness came by looking beyond the mark, they must needs fall; for God hath taken away his plainness from them, and delivered unto them many things which they cannot understand, because they desired it. And because they desired it God hath done it, that they may stumble.
I think many on this board may be doing this. I was definitely doing it and I will probably find more concerns in the future. I understand this may come across as judgmental and that it does not apply to all here.I do not mean to be judgmental.I posted to point out this issue of looking beyond the mark hoping that others would be benefited. I probably didn’t word it well and it’s probably not helpful. My second post was to clarify that I really had been wallowing in the mud (the “anti” material) and to just respond to others.
I think that is a fair post Shawn. Sent from my SCH-I500 using Tapatalk 2
Oh yeah…I am very sincere when I say I have no problem with the path you are striving to follow. May the gods smile upon you. Sent from my SCH-I500 using Tapatalk 2
Shawn wrote:I do not mean to be judgmental. I posted to point out this issue of looking beyond the mark hoping that others would be benefited. I probably didn’t word it well and it’s probably not helpful.
I disagree… I think it has been helpful. It has generated a good thread of discussion. Thank you, Shawn. I still feel it is important that we check ourselves, and make sure we are not sliding further away from our mission, which is to help people StayLDS. If we are getting off-track…we need a course correction.
At the same time, your judgments (I understand you may not intend to offend, but judgments they were), are difficult to articulate, which is the very point of holding the discussions online…things that may seem clear in our minds, are not as clear to express in words. I wonder if that has perhaps had the impact on you that you feel everyone on this site is “Jack Mormon” and looking beyond the mark, missing the important truths in the simple gospel truths.
You could be right. Or, you might be seeing it through a glass darkly and not fully understanding where others are that come here. In my opinion, your judgment is about you and how you see things. It does not necessarily mean it is truth for everyone, or how others see it, as we all struggle to put into words our feelings and learnings.
Shawn wrote:The witness I received really made my concerns go away. I felt at peace with everything.
…This is truth, this is beauty and sacred. Your personal revelation that helps you is a good thing to hear, and we need to have people share what they find and their personal experiences. It can help inspire others. But it can’t be forced upon others as the only way.
Quote:Preachers err by trying to talk people into belief, better they reveal the radiance of their own discovery – Joseph Campbell
It is wonderful to see your experience and how it helps you, and others may not experience the same thing or interpret things the same way, and that is OK. If you can, stay and participate in the discussion. It is good to have your perspective amid other voices and experiences. The goal is for everyone to feel that peace, and come closer to God and stay in the church in ways that really work, not forced submission or fake commitment. We can be loving and tolerate different views without it having to tarnish our own faith, as long as we are all respectful and positive in our forum.
I have witnessed other mormon sites that start wanting to have open dialogues…but often quickly turn into negative tones towards the church, mostly because people that are fully in the church voice their opinions openly in church, while others that think differently hold their tongue, then go to the blogs to puke it out. I have enjoyed this site because we try to keep it positive, and avoid turning negative towards the church…but we do allow the open dialogue as long as it keeps in line with the site mission. The day I find it has turned and lost the positive approach to keep striving to StayLDS, I will leave the forum. I have not found that my tolerance level has been reached…on the contrary, I find it therapeutic and I learn so much from others. (And I like the Joke of the Day thread to keep laughing
:thumbup: )I am trying to reply to a lot of posts. I appreciate your patience. afterall wrote:Jumping in here a little late, but am going to go ahead and post my thoughts as I read Shawn’s first post. Shawn, you are obviously struggling in some ways or you wouldn’t have come to explore this site and read enough to draw conclusions. If doing those things you listed worked, you would have already worked this out and not needed this site.
I was really struggling. I was perusing the ex-mormon site and that “further light and knowledge” site and other things. I was pretty darn sure I had become an agnostic a couple years ago. But I kept going to church and kept the commandments as well as I could. I felt the Spirit on occasion, which kept me going. Then I had the experience Sunday.I really believe the answer is to focus on the basic principles. Things fit into place nicely when the Spirit is with me. I actually can see how Brother Brigham could say erroneous and racist things and still be the prophet. Issues that can’t be answered just go to the back-burner. I say it’s good to get answers when available (Fairmormon) and put the rest on the back burner. Obviously, I didn’t receive a revelation for all of you, but it seems like answer that can help many.
Cadence wrote:I have to follow the path that is most likely correct after weighing the evidence and really thinking hard about it. Personally If I were just to focus on some core teaching and ignore all the evidence swirling around me to the contrary, I do not believe that would be an honest way to approach things. Sure I can ignore troublesome stuff and think about Jesus all the time but that does not get me any closer to what reality is. It may make me feel good and if that is the objective then I say by all means go for it. For me living an authentic existence regardless of what I want to believe is more important than feeling good.
That’s exactly how I’ve felt much of the time. It reminds me of this:
Quote:Some in their spiritual immaturity attempt to appear sophisticated and intellectual. Instead of accepting revelation, they want to dissect it and add dimensions and variations of meaning that distort its beautiful truths. As Elder Neal A. Maxwell of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles has pointed out, “The Jewish people … rejected the gospel, in part because it lacked adequate intellectual embroidery.” We look beyond the mark when we refuse to accept simple gospel truths for what they are.
http://www.lds.org/ensign/2003/03/looking-beyond-the-mark?lang=eng
Mind you, I didn’tignorethe evidence. I was searching for answers and explanations. Where answers are not available, why not “ignore troublesome stuff” for a while and focus on the Plan of Salvation? A few weeks ago, I actually let loose a bit with my wife. Quite passionately I said “With all the stuff Brigham Young said, there is
no wayhe could have been a prophet. And the Church changes according to the trends of the world – it is just 20 or so years behind. Why can’t the Gospel be simpler? Why does all that crap get in the way?” I voiced some other concerns (I can’t’ really remember it all), and my wife was upset and crying. The stuff was actually not new to her – she is well informed and is sort of an apologist. Anyway, she strongly said, “Yes, Brigham Young spoke his own mind sometimes and some of it was wrong, but he was a goodman! Every prophet in history must have done the same. I feel bad that he is not here to defend himself. Rules and policies change, but the Plan of Salvation doesnotchange! The Gospel is simple and beautiful. ” She totally owned me. Heber13 wrote:
I’m interested in hearing more from Shawn on how this works:Shawn wrote:All we have to do is focus on the “fundamental gospel truths, which provide a basis for faith.”
and how that reconciles with D&C 9:7-9.
Well, I guess I would consider the context (translating ancient records) and consider what topics would be appropriate to study out in my mind and take to the Lord. I think I don’t need to do this with the timing of the Second Coming, evolution, Brigham Young quotes, polygamy, etc. How to increase faith in Christ, repent, follow the Spirit, and serve others would be good things to consider.
wayfarer wrote:To say the Church is the only true and living church is looking well beyond the mark and worshipping the creation rather than the creator. This is idolatry.
The Church is not the Way. Jesus said, “I AM the Way, the Truth, and the Life.” Those that place the Church at the center and insist that it only can save are looking beyond the mark.
Scriptures are not the Truth. To Pharisees that insisted that the Scriptures were the only source of Truth and Life, and studied them endlessly, Jesus said, “Ye search the scriptures, for in them ye think ye have eternal life, but they do not, because scriptures testify of me, and ‘I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life.'” Those that insist on endless searching of scripture are looking beyond the mark.
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the only church set up by Christ to administer saving ordinances. Those ordinances will be available to everyone eventually. Simplysayingthat’s it’s the true church in no way constitutes “worshipping the creation rather than the creator.” I am with you on Jesus being the way, but He is one who set up the Church to help us on the path. If someone really does focus on Church structure and policies more than the Savior, then they are missing the point, I guess. If saying “The Church is not the Way” is used as an excuse to skip church, I call rubbish 🙂 The scripturesaretrue, but not the onlytruth. If regular study of the scriptures equals “endless searching,” then it is a very good thing. Heber13 wrote:At the same time, your judgments (I understand you may not intend to offend, but judgments they were), are difficult to articulate, which is the very point of holding the discussions online…things that may seem clear in our minds, are not as clear to express in words. I wonder if that has perhaps had the impact on you that you feel everyone on this site is “Jack Mormon” and looking beyond the mark, missing the important truths in the simple gospel truths.
Yes, I did write “I have had many questions and came here for help STAYING in the Church. What I found was people wallowing in the mud and feeding the doubt. This site has hurt me, not helped me. This site encourages each other to be a jack Mormon, choosing which principles, doctrines, and practices to follow.” I did not say that “everyone on this site is ‘Jack Mormon’ and looking beyond the mark.” I think the “How to Stay” essay really does encourage jack mormonism, but I didn’t call any person a jack mormon🙂
Heber13 wrote:
Quote:Shawn wrote:The witness I received really made my concerns go away. I felt at peace with everything.
…This is truth, this is beauty and sacred. Your personal revelation that helps you is a good thing to hear, and we need to have people share what they find and their personal experiences. It can help inspire others. But it can’t be forced upon others as the only way.
You are right. It can’t be forced. I really wish that others here could have a similar experience, though. Maybe some could benefit by letting go of some issues.
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