Looking Beyond the Mark

[Anonymous]

Last post. I didn’t hoodwink anyone.

There is blind obedience, and there is constantly rummaging through garbage obsessively picking apart every piece of trash. Maybe it’s best to be somewhere in between. Some responses in this thread show what I first pointed out and I hope you can let it go. Others may be getting good answers and moving on. I wish all of you the best.

[Anonymous]

Quote:

God is not found in the earthquake, in the blaring trumpets of apologists, in the zealous proclamations of those who condemn. God is not in the extremes. God is found in the midst, the middle of all things, the still, small voice at the center of our souls and very being.

This is the divine center–the Middle Way: that we have a divine nature, and by knowing that, becoming one with our divine selves, we can connect with others in love and lead them to the Way, the Truth, and the Life. This is the Way we follow Jesus. This is the Way for us to be “even as I AM”.

Be still and know that I AM god.

This is the Way, walk ye in it.

Thanks Wayfarer I really needed to hear this! For many months I have felt such a disconnect with “god.” There were many days I was not even sure if I believed in a god. Whenever me and DH would talk I would say, “I don’t know if I believe in a god anymore, but I hope there is a god.” I just realized that I feel disconnected because I have been thinking of God in the way I used to conceive of what god even is. Your words helped me see I have been moving myself more towards God. Like you said, “God is found in the midst, the middle of all things, the still, small voice at the center of our souls and very being.”

[Anonymous]

Quote:

Maybe it’s best to be somewhere in between.

That’s Confucius’ idea of a middle way we’ve been discussing lately – finding what makes sense between opposite extremes.

Well said, Shawn. That’s a large part of our mission here – with the emphasis that “somewhere” in between can be different places for different people – that it’s fine to be playing different instruments as long as we’re attempting to play in concert within the same orchestra and under the direction of the same conductor.

We’re doing that here at this site.

[Anonymous]

I just had to say Heber I love, Love, LOVE this quote! :thumbup:

Heber13 wrote:

For some, questioning some things and having doubt is dangerous to where they are in their faith. Perhaps to others, it is their mustard seed of faith…or their widow’s mite of faith…it is all they have from their perspective. If it is honest and sincere, not deceptive and trying to justify [less worthy] lifestyles…perhaps God accepts that offering of planting the seed they have (Alma 32). We are not all in the same place, looking at the same light, and don’t all see only black and white…but the rainbow of goodness in our world.

[Anonymous]

So many great comments on this thread! I really am impressed with how loving and open mined everyone has been. I would like to add one simple comment though.

Shawn, thank you for sharing your thoughts and your experiences with us-I hope it is helpful to you and others reading this thread. You mentioned that you had been struggling for a long while with concerns about the church, but then received a witness that gave you peace. If you had not received that witness, you might still be struggling, correct? I just want to mention that because there are people on this site who may not have been granted that peace yet, and are still searching for it. Just like you studied and searched before you came to find that peace, they are going through their own spiritual journey right now.

For some of us, it doesn’t happen all at once. I personally have always been one to focus on one or two concerns at a time until I find peace with them, and receive some sort of testimony about them.

I hope I don’t offend you when I say this, but it seems like you may be expecting everyone to feel the same peace you feel because of your revelation. I wonder if Heavenly Father gave you those questions/concerns and this overwhelming peace so that you could understand when others are questioning – not expect others not to question.

Just a thought. I know that in my life the Lord gives me trials so that I can better understand, love and help those around me.

[Anonymous]

Quote:

I wonder if Heavenly Father gave you those questions/concerns and this overwhelming peace so that you could understand when others are questioning – not expect others not to question.

HSAB, that is a very profound comment.

[Anonymous]

Ray, I’m 33 years old.

HSAB wrote:

Shawn, thank you for sharing your thoughts and your experiences with us-I hope it is helpful to you and others reading this thread. You mentioned that you had been struggling for a long while with concerns about the church, but then received a witness that gave you peace. If you had not received that witness, you might still be struggling, correct? I just want to mention that because there are people on this site who may not have been granted that peace yet, and are still searching for it. Just like you studied and searched before you came to find that peace, they are going through their own spiritual journey right now.

For some of us, it doesn’t happen all at once. I personally have always been one to focus on one or two concerns at a time until I find peace with them, and receive some sort of testimony about them.

I hope I don’t offend you when I say this, but it seems like you may be expecting everyone to feel the same peace you feel because of your revelation. I wonder if Heavenly Father gave you those questions/concerns and this overwhelming peace so that you could understand when others are questioning – not expect others not to question.

Just a thought. I know that in my life the Lord gives me trials so that I can better understand, love and help those around me.

Yes, I said my last post would be the final one, but HSAB deserves a response.

HSAB, thanks for your response. I did receive a witness Sunday that brought me peace. You are correct that I would still be struggling without it. It really didn’t happen all at once, though – the last witness was one of a few, and many questions were answered in other ways. I read FairMormon, Jeff Lindsay, and posted some stuff on another forum.

I do not expect everyone to have an experience like mine, but I hope some do. In my first post, I wrote:

Quote:

I have had many questions and came here for help STAYING in the Church. What I found was people wallowing in the mud and feeding the doubt. This site has hurt me, not helped me. This site encourages each other to be a jack Mormon, choosing which principles, doctrines, and practices to follow. All we have to do is focus on the “fundamental gospel truths, which provide a basis for faith.”

I already retracted the part about this site hurting me because it hasn’t. I maintain that there are people here wallowing in the mud and feeding the doubt, posting bitter responses in threads. I understand there are also many here trying to progress. There are answers and explanations for concerns I’ve had, but sometimes the answer is to stop asking certain questions.

[Anonymous]

Quote:

I have had many questions and came here for help STAYING in the Church. What I found was people wallowing in the mud and feeding the doubt. This site has hurt me, not helped me. This site encourages each other to be a jack Mormon, choosing which principles, doctrines, and practices to follow. All we have to do is focus on the “fundamental gospel truths, which provide a basis for faith.”

Shawn – you received your answers from FairMormon, Jeff Lindsay and learning to stop asking certain questions. I think that is wonderful. I can only speak for myself as a frequent lurker here, but I have been to FairMormon, Jeff Lindsay, and many other apologist websites. They helped me for a time to load up the shelf, but ultimately were unsuccessful. I would say that most people here have tried the apologetic route and find it lacking. I don’t come here to feed my doubt. I came here to find a way to be true to myself and find a place in the church. This site does not encourage people to be Jack Mormons. It encourages people to explore themselves to find what they belief to be true and to live true to those beliefs. This site has helped me to find peace within myself. I have read every post in this thead and I have not found any to be bitter or wallowing. People have expressed to you what they believe and why they believe it. If you have found another way good for you, but please don’t call the beautiful responses I have seen in this post – responses that exposed their inner souls – wallowing in the mud. It is offensive.

[Anonymous]

Shawn wrote:

I did receive a witness Sunday that brought me peace. You are correct that I would still be struggling without it. It really didn’t happen all at once, though – the last witness was one of a few, and many questions were answered in other ways. I read FairMormon, Jeff Lindsay, and posted some stuff on another forum.

I do not expect everyone to have an experience like mine, but I hope some do. In my first post, I wrote:

Quote:

I have had many questions and came here for help STAYING in the Church. What I found was people wallowing in the mud and feeding the doubt. This site has hurt me, not helped me. This site encourages each other to be a jack Mormon, choosing which principles, doctrines, and practices to follow. All we have to do is focus on the “fundamental gospel truths, which provide a basis for faith.”

I already retracted the part about this site hurting me because it hasn’t. I maintain that there are people here wallowing in the mud and feeding the doubt, posting bitter responses in threads. I understand there are also many here trying to progress. There are answers and explanations for concerns I’ve had, but sometimes the answer is to stop asking certain questions.

What is so bad and intolerable about Jack Mormonism (Luke 18:9-14)? Personally I think the Church could use more cafeteria Mormons that don’t take everything the Church says so seriously to help balance things out and prevent the Church from being too much of an extreme fringe organization for its own good. It’s easy for TBMs to say that those that don’t believe in all this or don’t want to go along with everything the Church says should just leave but it is not necessarily that easy for some of us when it really gets to that point.

I see this site as sort of a last resort to try to salvage some value from the Church and our experience with it and a place to help members come to terms with their beliefs that have already changed to leave them permanently outside of the traditional orthodox Mormon box and it is also a place to help them decide for themselves what they should do about it. Trying to limit the discussions to always defend the Church and promote faith in it at all costs will never accomplish these things. It sounds like what you want is pure apologetics where people will tell you that the Church is more or less everything it claims to be in spite of some of the apparent inconsistencies. There are other websites geared around trying to maintain that kind of environment but I don’t see why this one should be the same way.

[Anonymous]

Ciasiab wrote:

I have read every post in this thead and I have not found any to be bitter or wallowing. People have expressed to you what they believe and why they believe it. If you have found another way good for you, but please don’t call the beautiful responses I have seen in this post – responses that exposed their inner souls – wallowing in the mud. It is offensive.

The responses here have been fine and I appreciate that. I didn’t say there are any bitter responses in this thread. I have seen them in other threads. I’m sorry if I wasn’t clear.

[Anonymous]

Shawn wrote:

I’m sorry if I wasn’t clear.

No need to apologize, Shawn. Its near impossible to know how to choose the perfect words to express your ideas crystal clear to everyone all the time. It is why there needs to be a dialogue, to ask and seek clarification, and truly listen to understand another person, and get closer to the truth of the intent of their message. That is nothing to apologize for if we grow closer in understanding of one another.

Quote:

Matthew 7: 7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:

8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

🙂

Ciasiab wrote:

I don’t come here to feed my doubt. I came here to find a way to be true to myself and find a place in the church. This site does not encourage people to be Jack Mormons. It encourages people to explore themselves to find what they belief to be true and to live true to those beliefs. This site has helped me to find peace within myself.

Thanks for coming out of “lurk-dom” to share that. It was beautifully written. :thumbup:

I like having a safe place to explore things. Even if later I find I was wrong about some things, it is good to learn it for myself. Perhaps at times I have looked beyond the mark…and through being able to explore it, I now benefit from having greater clarity on what the mark is for me. Other times, I truly believe I’ve come closer to the mark and learned a new depth of meaning to things by not being afraid to ever be wrong and look beyond the mark by honest mistake. I will admit I have been wrong with some questions, with some thoughts, with some ideas…and I’ve learned from it.

I hope many others get to have the same experiences. I don’t want to stop asking the questions, it doesn’t not feel right to me. That feels like there is fear in pursuing truth. But I do not prescribe my approach to anyone else. For others, maybe there is more harm than good that comes from some questions. Some may get lost if they leave the safety of the center of the fold, or just find it unnecessary to their peace and happiness. But some feel more comfortable on the fringes…still in the fold…but less claustrophobic than being in center. “Not all who wander are lost” – they just look lost to some who are safely in the center.

I believe this site is to help people who are already asking the questions, and don’t know where to turn. It is not on a mission to solicit questioners, or plant seeds of doubt and questions in others’ minds. It is here to allow those that want to talk to do so in a safe place without fear, with respect and sincerity.

I hope more people follow Ciasiab’s example and when ready to join the conversation, come out of lurking status and share their views. It strengthens the dialogue…even if some will do so with anger and hurt and doubt for a time. I do not fear that. Those are valid emotions in the reality of this life, and there is a place for them in our learning and healing, as long as they don’t become the destination (for if they want to only be “loitering vent-ers”, moderators will nudge them along and keep the forum focused on searching for ideas on how to deal with things).

[Anonymous]

Shawn wrote:

Ciasiab wrote:

I have read every post in this thead and I have not found any to be bitter or wallowing. People have expressed to you what they believe and why they believe it. If you have found another way good for you, but please don’t call the beautiful responses I have seen in this post – responses that exposed their inner souls – wallowing in the mud. It is offensive.

The responses here have been fine and I appreciate that. I didn’t say there are any bitter responses in this thread. I have seen them in other threads. I’m sorry if I wasn’t clear.

FWIW, I believe that Shawn is completely correct in observing that there are some bitter postings on this site.

Ray, Brian and the other moderators do a great job of steering the threads clear of personal attacks, open letters to the church leadership, etc. But a certain amount of bitterness is to be expected when people come to feel betrayed. As I see it, this site is set up to help those that have come to feel betrayed to find a better way than lashing out, a better way than attacking, a better way than merely burying the pain. Sometimes that better way allows for continued activity in the church and sometimes not but hopefully such individuals will depart this site in a better place than they were in when they arrived.

So, yes when people come here they will display varying degrees of bitterness. One of the most important services that I feel this site provides for people that are hurting in this way is to validate their feelings. (BTW there is a difference between validating someone’s feelings and agreeing with them/ justifying their actions). I believe that validating these feelings will send the critical message that people who feel hurt and betrayed and bitter are not deviant, they are not unworthy, they are not blinded by the sophistries of the Devil, they are not outside the reach of God’s love – They are normal human beings with normal feelings traveling through a common human condition. They are us and we are them.

[Anonymous]

Thanks for that, Roy.

There was a comment a while ago in a thread that said, essentially, “When someone accuses the Church of being a cult, I like to ask, ‘Lord, is it I?'”

That is good introspection, especially with regard to bitterness – but, in this case, bitterness doesn’t automatically equal “bad”. Sometimes, even often, it simply “is” – and working through it productively is important.

[Anonymous]

Yes. The thing that frustrates me is that people who aren’t predisposed to hurt, bitterness, etcetera have a fairly low tolerance for the period when some of us get bitter after drinking from the bitter cup….each person stays there for their own period of time.

In my case, the bitterness has morphed into coping strategies now. I could list the things I do differently now because of my own challenging experiences in the Church. And I say it again — I’m much happier with my life than I was before the bitter period started.

I’m also reminded what Martin Seligman said in his book Flourish — some people are simply predisposed to depression, which I think can be related to bitterness and negative thinking, Abraham Lincoln and Winston Churchill are two examples of people who had depression, says Seligman. Yet they learned to live productive lives in spite of it. Seligman uses what he calls “resilience training” to help people with this predisposition to flourish in spite of their depressive tendencies. The goals is not to “cure depression” or negative thought patterns, the goal is to be successful in spite of them. For some of us, they just don’t go away in spite of huge amounts of effort.

This was a truly liberating thought when I read it in Seligman’s book. Truly liberating that even successful people have suffered from thinking problems, yet coped somehow and made their lives productive in spite of it. Without ever curing the tendency to have thinking problems.

I can’t tell you how hard it is to change thought patterns. Honestly…to accept that I am this way, love myself in spite of it, keep working to change it, but most of all DO GOOD THINGS in spite of these tendencies is truly liberating.

This is the value of StayLDS. It helps you get those bitter feelings out for a while. Eventually people get sick of your story….and your only alternative is to start coping and changing and growing. Getting through that obsession with bitterness is part of the process for some of us. For me, it takes literally periods of 5 years or so to get past the bitter experience where I don’t feel bitter anymore.

Call the end result post-traumatic-church growth if you will, and being down in the weeds is part of the process of climbing out of them.

[Anonymous]

Quote:

I’m also reminded what Martin Seligman said in his book Flourish — some people are simply predisposed to depression, which I think can be related to bitterness and negative thinking, Abraham Lincoln and Winston Churchill are two examples of people who had depression, says Seligman. Yet they learned to live productive lives in spite of it. Seligman uses what he calls “resilience training” to help people with this predisposition to flourish in spite of their depressive tendencies. The goals is not to “cure depression” or negative thought patterns, the goal is to be successful in spite of them. For some of us, they just don’t go away in spite of huge amounts of effort.

I think this is a very important point. The predispositions that we bring with us into this life have much to do with our experiences in all aspects of life including the Church. I believe some people are predisposed to faith and spirituality, others to reason and logic, some to optimism and hope and others to its opposite. All of us sometimes benefit from these predispositions and sometimes we struggle because of them. Shawn has certainly had a legitimate spiritual experience but it does not follow that all of us can or will. I have had few profoundly spiritual experiences in my life but I know people for whom such experiences are an almost daily occurrence. It reinforces the idea that the experience of being Mormon is incredibly variable. As has been mentioned several times, we must all find our own way through the fog that is this life. It reminds me of Paul’s words to the Corinthians (I Corinthians 12)

Quote:

4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord. 6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.

[Author]

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