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I have been a closet new order mormon for about 8 years now. My wife is a TBM. We both feel it is time I am more open with others about how I feel, ie. tell the bishop, possibly my parents. We just feel I need to stop keeping all this cooped up inside. Currently I am assistant scout master and I help with sunday lessons. I am really struggling with teaching and especially when everyone expects me to bare my testimony at the end. I am not being true to myself and I am really struggling inside.
I would like to stay lds, yet I have some underlying feelings that I feel are keeping me from gaining a different kind of testimony where I could feel at peace staying within the church. I struggle with the guilt, betrayal, and hypocrisy within the church. So much that when I go to church that is all I hear and see. My wife comes away feeling the spirit and I come away pointing out things that are said that I don’t agree with.
Is it possible that a therapist could help me resolve my feelings of guilt and betrayal so I could then possibly gain a new testimony of the goodness within the church and feel happy within it’s walls? That’s what I’m hoping for. Has anyone tried going down this path? Anyone know of any therapists in Az with experience helping members with their crisis?
A few comments: 1. I wouldn’t come clean with the Bishop on this. That will only lead to unpleasant consequences. Check out the How To Stay In the Church article on the stayLDS home page. You will have more flexibility and choice in the future in the Church if you deal with this privately, outside of the priesthood line.
2. Some of the best therapists are on this site.
3. I have overcome the lack of authenticity on matters that bother me. I deal with it this way:
a) testify of the goodness of the Church, not its truthfulness
b) recognize that you are never totally authentic anywhere — in fact, being authentic at work can get you fired or attract unhappy consequences. The Church is just another place where you censor what you say, just as you do anywhere out of discretion and valor and respect for other’s beliefs. Don’t feel guilty about it.
c) skip lessons you don’t believe in, or emphasize only those parts of the lesson you feel good about. I also assign other people to teach them and take a week off now and then.
d) focus on the benefits to any children in your family — ask yourself, if my kids (if any) grow up to be clean-living, kind, honest people with a desire to serve others, what’s so bad about that?
e) get on the internal compass quickly where you live the gospel as your heart and personal spirituality dictates. There is freedom, self-respect and autonomy in that…
Wow. 2.5 years and three posts. That is some serious lurking there. Welcome … I guess. You’ve been here way longer than I have. I think I agree with SD’s advice. “Coming out” is an invitation to become a project, and you probably don’t want that. Best to keep them guessing. This site is a great place to let it all hang out, and may be all that you need in that way. Of course this is a very personal decision. How do you think your parents would react to such a revelation?
I have little experience with this, but I would think that finding a therapist with the proper background and outlook to help you achieve the balance that you’re looking for is going to be tough.
Hi weissadler, Sorry I won’t know of any therapists for you, but the article from Dr. Wendy Ulrich comes to mind:
It was good for me, gave me things to think about. Also for me, I found that when I really decided that I wanted to make it work, and I was committed to make it work, I became more successful at putting a few tools to use – and they started working.
It is not easy, I think that is obvious. Especially at first. But it does become easier with practice. The first steps for me were to look for the symbolic meanings in everything I heard at church. Even if the topic to me looked like a blatant fabrication — I looked for some underlying truth that the symbol of the topic pointed toward.
At the same time I tried to forgive, even those that do not “deserve” forgiveness. Forgive the ignorant, forgive the prideful and self-righteous, forgive the despots and power-mongers, forgive the priestly, forgive the opinionated. As your comprehension grows that everyone is in the same imperfect human condition, (I think) your charity can increase, and your tendency to feel threatened by anyone else’s understanding diminishes.
Good luck! Hang in there! Please let us know some of the specifics that are on your mind!
Hi, WA. I’m in Gilbert. I think friends are the best therapy, like SilentDawning said. I will PM you about some ideas. I told my bishop(s), but pretty much nobody else. In other words, I was candid in interviews. I don’t know why, but I have never become much of a project. Maybe they figure I’m not worth worrying about or I know what I’m doing or I’m scary with my dress and grooming (just look at that avatar!).
😆 I’m always affable and positive and never cranky or confrontational about my faith change; I think that’s a huge factor.I wouldn’t advise talking to your bishop unless there’s a good reason. Just getting it off your chest could get you into an uncomfortable situation and not help you move forward. Tom’s comment about staying affable is spot on. When I went through my grumpy, angry stage, it just pushed people away and didn’t really help me come to terms with what I was trying to sort through. Looking for the good and letting go for the black and white was a big step for me and has made things a lot more peaceful. I went through the same thing with teaching and just stopped teaching or quoting the things I didn’t agree with. I guess I’ve just seconded what other’s have said but there really is a lot of wisdom here. Lastly, a good counselor is worth it but you may want to skip LDS social services. Tom Haws wrote:(just look at that avatar!)
Hey, you changed it! I’ve been telling my friends that Ben Affleck is LDS.
Orson wrote:At the same time I tried to forgive, even those that do not “deserve” forgiveness. Forgive the ignorant, forgive the prideful and self-righteous, forgive the despots and power-mongers, forgive the priestly, forgive the opinionated. As your comprehension grows that everyone is in the same imperfect human condition, (I think) your charity can increase, and your tendency to feel threatened by anyone else’s understanding diminishes.
That is profound. Topic now bookmarked. Thanks.Thank you all for your words of encouragement and guidance. I’ve decided not to say anything to my parents. I’m the oldest of 5 boys. We all got our eagles and we all served missions except for the last one. And he told me that my kind hearted always loving mom told him he will be going to hell because of this decision. He has sense gotten married, but not in the temple. Last year he found out that he has several spots of skin cancer that have been removed. Twice now my mom has said that if he was an active member and wore his garments he wouldn’t have cancer. Even though most of the spots that needed to be removed were on his feet. Personally I found that rather hard. So I am very fearful of how my parents would react to my true feelings about the church. My dad is as dogmatic as it gets. I guess what’s hard for me is feeling like I’m living a lie. But also feeling that living a lie would be easier than letting others know. The church also teaches to stand for something and part of me feels like I’m being cowardly in quietly living one way but thinking another. But I do think I can walk the fine line of choosing what lessons to teach or changing wording to fit my beliefs, ie. changing “know” to “believe”. But I also need to get over my feelings of hurt. Of feeling deceived. I’m still on the fence about talking to the bishop. It’s complicated in that next month I’m suppose to baptize my daughter. My wife knows of my lack of faith and questions wether it is ok for me to perform the ordinances. I personally feel God would not withhold the Holy Ghost from my daughter because of my lack of faith and I also feel he would inspire me to say what should be said during the blessing part. My wife is torn about me talking to the bishop because his wife is best friends with my mother-in-law and my wife is concerned that if the bishop says something to his wife then it would get back to her mom. Ah, the joys of being mormon!
I agree that if I am active on this forum and met a few of you in person that could be all the therapy I need.
I recommend listening to the mormon stories podcast interview Dan Wotherspoon. There’s a current thread about the interview. Dan went through a similar experience involving performing ordinances for his children. I reallylike his outlook. It fits for me, at least. Sounds like talking to the folks is a no-go from the start. Perphaps your brother could use some reassurance.
I agree that meeting some of the good people on staylds could be good, and certainly would be interesting. Deciding which beverages to serve at a get-together would be problematic.
doug wrote:
I agree that meeting some of the good people on staylds could be good, and certainly would be interesting.Deciding which beverages to serve at a get-together would be problematic. I won’t attend unless beer is served!
🙂 Welcome to the site. I think this place is very therapeutic. Hopefully we can help each other work through faith crisis together.
weissadler wrote:I’m still on the fence about talking to the bishop. It’s complicated in that next month I’m suppose to baptize my daughter.
I was almost exactly in your shoes about 3.5 years ago. I would highly recommend soothing your own thoughts at least until after the baptism of your daughter. If you can honestly tell your wife “I feel good about performing the baptism” I would suggest trying to ease her mind on it. Stress if you need that you are worthy, and you don’t want to look back with regret on a life event that didn’t go the way it should have because of a “few thoughts.” Thoughts are not sin. The desire of the heart is another line but the relevance here is your desire to be united with your family in meaningful tradition — and looking toward spiritual growth.
The way my situation played out — a couple months after the baptism I had a visit with my bishop. I told him I just didn’t know what I could take literally anymore. It was a positive experience, he said we are supposed to question – Jesus taught in parables – that I had done nothing wrong, and he hoped that I would continue to feel welcome participating in church. I realize that different personalities may give others in a similar situation a less favorable experience, but I wish that wasn’t the case and hope things will eventually change.
Hang in there, try not to make any sudden moves while things are in flux!
First of all, welcome to the forum, you are among friends, and hope our little support group is helpful. We are not professional therapists, and don’t try to be. We are just friends who enjoy taking time out of our lives to share things we’ve learned and are striving to learn more of. But in the end, we’re all just like you, seeking peace and dispelling inner fear and suffering, by being honest with ourselves and applying things we’ve learned through church teachings to our rational and legitimate questions and feelings as we experience life. I baptize my son this Saturday. I am really looking forward to it. For a time, I was worried if my bishop would let me, and what would happen if he didn’t. It got me tense. But I retain that I am worthy, so there is no reason I shouldn’t, and I’m careful how I express my feelings to others so I don’t give off the wrong impressions. Having doubts is OK, it is not a sin. And I don’t want to be the one that keeps myself from enjoying this special time with my son, just because I’m worried of what others think of me. God knows my heart, He knows my faith, and He knows I have asked Him to help my unbelief…so if He is OK with me, then I should be OK with me, and no one else (like the bishop) needs to worry about me while I’m working through things…because here I am…still trying…and that is what Christ asks us to do…keep trying.
Yesterday I talked with my son and asked him what he thinks about baptism. His sweet answers touched my heart. He wants to be a good boy, follow Jesus, and have the Holy Ghost. He knows nothing about the kinderhook plates, or polygamy, or blacks and the priesthood (sometimes I envy him). And as his dad, I want him to keep that faith and always try to be good and be happy.
Some people may wonder if little kids even know what baptism means, or if they understand the covenant they are making. But I know when I was 8, I felt warm and tingling all over, it was my first experience I remember of feeling the spirit. I cannot deny that. I baptized my oldest son 4 years ago. When we were changing into dry clothes, he said, “Dad, I feel happy. When I came out of the water, I felt warm all over. That’s the Spirit, isn’t it?” I cried. It bonded us together. I’m glad I am able to be a part of my kids’ life and their choices. I cherish that, and for that am grateful for the priesthood. I may not understand how the Spirit works, but I will not deny my son and I felt it on that day.
So, while I don’t understand everything, I can still accept some things are real and good and not explain them away or use my doubts and fears to overshadow the good I see in the church, but try to accept it all, the good and the bad.
Whatever doubts or fears I have as an adult, I don’t want those to spill over or become my kids’ experiences. I want them to have their own experiences, and when they come to me with doubts, fears, or questions, I want to be ready for them. But for now, I focus on how these experiences strengthen our relationships, which is what it is all about, IMO.
I agree with Orson, that you should go slow, relax, and focus on the special time with your child and confirm to your wife your love for them during this time. There is plenty of time to seek out questions and other matters, but there is no need to let fear prevent you from participating in these special family events.
Hang in there. Go slow. Study, pray, meditate…and be honest with yourself…but always focus on love and let other things take a back seat to your love for others. I hope that helps. Please feel free to share your thoughts/doubts/fears if it helps to get our perspective on things. You’re not alone. God bless you and your family.
One other thought…because I want my son’s baptism to be a special family time, I thought it was appropriate to have his Grandpa confirm him and give him the Gift of the Holy Ghost. I think that will bond them together also. Just a thought, that sometimes we can make it easier on ourselves and include others, and it works out for everyone in the end, as long as my son knows he is a special boy and is loved by me, his Grandpa, and his Heavenly Father. That’s all that matters.
Remember n=1 and your mileage may vary. My husband came home from Church a few years ago and was just astonished about what a brother said in EQ. He said he didn’t really know if he believed the church was true. DH had no clue why someone would come to church who wasn’t a true believer, he knows that he would NOT be bothering if he didn’t at least have a pretty good testimony.
Fast forward to present. My husband is now the bishop. This same brother is currently serving as ward financial clerk–sans temple recommend, not paying a full tithe and the bishop is fully aware of his lack of testimony. He has some WoW issues also from what we understand. Why does he get to keep that clerk position? Because he’s damn good at it! And I’m sure he’ll stay there until someone like the stake president ix-nays it.
I’m not sure exactly how that example fits in your life, if it does at all, but it’s just another example of how everything isn’t so cookie cutter. There is no way to know how your bishop will react to your situation. I think keeping it between you and your spouse is good advice and then test the waters with your own bishop and then if you ever need to broach the subject with him you might have a good idea of where he stands already. Not sure how you go about that.
I’m sorry about your parents. My dad who turns 80 this year just said at the dinner table a few weeks ago, “Well, President Benson may have moderated his views after becoming the prophet but not until he lead a lot people astray.” He was speaking about some local people who went to jail because they refused to pay taxes and they used Benson’s rhetoric as their excuse. So I guess my parents are a bit more buffet Mormon!
Okay, I’m making this post extra long so that the women get some posting credit from Cwald.
😆 You think I’m bad here. You should see me in Sunday School and Relief Society.
observant wrote:Okay, I’m making this post extra long so that the women get some posting credit from Cwald.
😆 You think I’m bad here. You should see me in Sunday School and Relief Society.
And a damn good post at that. Consider yourself “credited.”
🙂
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