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Howdy All This is my first post. I didn’t know this site existed until I heard about it from my brother in law. He too comes here with his concerns but we are at opposite ends of the spectrum. He is still attending church while I have been slipping away for the last 5 years. My main concern and the event that opened the door to my loss of faith was learning about Joseph Smith’s history. I was always taught growing up that he did all these wonderful things. I never learned anything bad about his past. When I got older and heard things from others I wrote if off as “anti” stuff and ignored it. Then about 5 years ago I was challenged by my EQ president to learn more about his incredible life. When I started doing this I learned about his numerous wives, questionable translations, but most disturbing was the different versions of the first vision. When i factored in the “other issues” I had a hard time believing that God could restore his church through such a person. To this day I think he is more con man than visionary.
For the past 5 years my attendance at church has been sporadic though my wife and kids attend faithfully. I don’t view the church as Evil though I struggled with a lot of anger my first few years when I distanced myself.
So basically I want your ideas/opinions on areas I struggle with. For example I have been told by several friends to “fake it until I make it” and go back to church because it is the right thing to do. My thinking is that I enjoy my extra 3 hours on Sunday. I want to be supportive of my kids but I cringe in Sunday School and Elders Quorum when certain information gets brought up.
I am also struggling with the Mission Question. I myself went on a mission and have a realistic view of what makes a mission good and bad. I think going made me more comfortable communicating with people and I learned to be independent and rely on myself, but I hated the “business” approach where Elders were rewarded for Kissing butt to the zone leaders. Where we constantly were getting pressured for discussions taught, etc. I don’t want to see my son have to go through this. I wish I had gone straight through college instead of the mission detour. I don’t know how to express to him without giving him a chance to decide for himself. Anyway I am sure you will hear more from me in the future. I look forward to getting to know u guys better.
Welcome! Your concerns about Joseph Smith resonate with me as well. I too have struggled with the different versions of the First Vision. As someone new myself, I found it very helpful to listen to the recordings on the Stages of Faith and read the posts regarding it as well. I realized that I could remain stuck in the bewilderment and even anger phase (stage 4) forever if I didn’t actively ask the Lord to help me see things differently. My choice was to remain in the Church but I am having to reframe almost all I have known and thought about the church. It is impossible to unlearn what you now know about church history and troubling doctrines but you can find a different way of viewing them – a way that allows you to find the Gospel, the Savior, and the Atonement within it all – possibly in a much more real way than ever. I am just at the tip of the iceberg but I am inspired and encouraged by reading these comments. It seems that many here are far along in that process and I find strength in what they say. It may help to search issues on this site that are important to you and read the posts related to that. For example, I would assume a good discussion or two regarding the versions of the First Vision have taken place here.
Good luck!
I am familiar with the theory of “fake it ’til you make it,” but don’t really observe that working for a lot of people in the long run. Perhaps I just don’t know many like that because they are faking it effectively, and thus don’t talk about it much let alone visit forums to talk about it. Anyway … Our general goal here is not to fake it, but instead to find ways of re-purposing Mormon mythology, theology and culture so that we can enjoy staying — to truly find value again in the experience of being Mormon. That requires a shift in paradigm and in our overall framework. Fowler Stages of Faith is one language to talk about it. There are others as well.
On the specific topic of the First Vision, yeah … there are problems with the record of various versions. Ultimately, like most other forms of religious mythology, it is impossible to ever “know” the truth. Only Joseph and God/Jesus are the “actors” in the story of the First Vision, and we can really only question Joseph in a materialistic sense. So a StayLDS-styled approach will generally deal less with trying to figure out once and for all if it really happened a certain way, and focus more on trying to build meaning out of the story.
The mission experience is another challenging topic for a lot of us, thinking back on our own experiences and trying to figure out how we want to deal with that now with our own children.
Wilma Fingerdoo wrote:I am also struggling with the Mission Question. I myself went on a mission and have a realistic view of what makes a mission good and bad. I think going made me more comfortable communicating with people and I learned to be independent and rely on myself, but I hated the “business” approach where Elders were rewarded for Kissing butt to the zone leaders. Where we constantly were getting pressured for discussions taught, etc. I don’t want to see my son have to go through this. I wish I had gone straight through college instead of the mission detour. I don’t know how to express to him without giving him a chance to decide for himself. Anyway I am sure you will hear more from me in the future. I look forward to getting to know u guys better.
First…welcome! It’s always nice to read new perspectives here. Your path is quite normal here…I doubt you’ll say anything that will shock us, so please use “us” as a sounding board.
My approach to the issues you mentioned is a bit different than many here…I don’t attend as frequently as I used to; I find the talks/lessons too conflicting with my understanding, and I find more spirituality in other places. But I admire those here that do, and I think it is possible to remain active even with “our” new understanding.
The way I look at it now is that we are like a sports team. “We” think we are the best in the league, have the best coach, and cheer for each other. From our perspective, we are right!
But from an objective standpoint, we are one of many, all trying to better ourselves the best we can. The “game” is just a way to help us see where we can improve. IN the end, we are all equal, and I can look back on my life understanding that.
I went on a mission, and I have a son that went on one 6 years ago. I have a successful professional life today, and my son is entering grad school top of his class. I really credit “our” mission experiences for teaching us life skills that will help us our entire lives. Great personal discipline, study skills, tolerance (companions, etc.), salesmanship, and so many other things. I don’t regret it for a minute! Sure, maybe we “sold” a product we feel differently about today, but that is true with so much of our lives…what I find important to me today is sooooo different than what I did the first 50 years of my life, etc. Maybe the evolution of our thinking is a great gift we get to enjoy on our brief journey here on the planet?!
Anyway, my advice is to thoughtfully, prayerfully, consider all your options and how it impacts the people important to you…but whether you choose to remain “active” or not, you need to do what feels right to you. Your emotional/spiritual well-being is probably more important than anything else — both to you and your family!
Welcome. I will be brief and just say that I don’t like the “fake it” philosophy. it’s a cheap “quick fix” plan at best. Hopefully this site can help you come to terms with your faith and allow you to find peace, and perhaps not have to, in Ray’s words, “throw out the baby with the bath water.” Be patience, and if you haven’t, please read the websites aritcle “How to StayLDS after a Crisis of your Faith.” i read it weekly – it helps me keep things in perspective as I strive to remain an active member in the organization. Welcome Wilma. Glad you found the site. I hope you find it helpful as you explore the answers to your questions, either doctrinal questions or just coping questions. I think sometimes the “fake it till you make it” is a catchy phrase that can be over used or not used properly. In many ways, it is just a part of life and learning. In a new job, a person has lots to learn before they can really be comfortable in performing the job tasks…but it doesn’t always serve the person’s best interest to quit when making mistakes or not knowing things, nor to point out to oneself or others all the things you don’t know. Instead, you can continue trying to learn as you go, believing you can figure it out with more experience.
The same can be said for knowledge or testimony. It is hard to know how you can cope or deal with things in the church if you just stop dealing with them until you figure out all truth. I think it is better to continue trying things (attending church, attending other churches, reading LDS scriptures, reading non-LDS holy writings, etc) until you start to develop your own personal story of what is helpful to you in finding peace in this life. When you “test” things out…you can grow.
Quote:C.S. Lewis in The Weight of Glory:If our religion is something objective, then we must never avert our eyes from those elements in it which seem puzzling or repellant; for it will be precisely the puzzling or the repellant which conceals what we do not yet know and need to know….the truth we need most is hidden precisely in the doctrines you least like and least understand. Scientists make progress because scientists instead of running away from such troublesome phenomena or hushing them up, are constantly seeking them out. In the same way, there will be progress in Christian knowledge only as long as we accept the challenge of the difficult or repellant doctrines. A ‘liberal’ Christianity which considers itself free to alter the Faith whenever the Faith looks perplexing or repellent MUST be completely stagnant. Progress is made only into a resisting material.
Some people may say you are “going through the motions” or “faking it” while trying to figure out what you believe and what you don’t, but to me, that is one way you can learn. Personally, I am glad I did not throw away all things about the church that I love and cherish, and continue to attend church (mostly), while I studied out for myself what I believe.
Anyway, it is good to have you here and I look forward to learning from reading your thoughts and experiences.
Welcome, Wilma! I remember last year when I was teaching the adult Gospel Doctrine class about the First Vision…
I brought in the different versions, including the last one found (in the 60’s, I think it was) and compared the different views/stories to this:
Six Blind Men & the Elephant
It was six men of Indostan
To learning much inclined,
Who went to see the Elephant
(Though all of them were blind),
That each by observation
Might satisfy his mind.
The First approached the Elephant,
And happening to fall
Against his broad and sturdy side,
At once began to bawl:
“God bless me! but the Elephant
Is very like a wall!”
The Second, feeling of the tusk
Cried, “Ho! what have we here,
So very round and smooth and sharp?
To me ’tis mighty clear
This wonder of an Elephant
Is very like a spear!”
The Third approached the animal,
And happening to take
The squirming trunk within his hands,
Thus boldly up he spake:
“I see,” quoth he, “the Elephant
Is very like a snake!”
The Fourth reached out an eager hand,
And felt about the knee:
“What most this wondrous beast is like
Is mighty plain,” quoth he;
“‘Tis clear enough the Elephant
Is very like a tree!”
The Fifth, who chanced to touch the ear,
Said: “E’en the blindest man
Can tell what this resembles most;
Deny the fact who can,
This marvel of an Elephant
Is very like a fan!”
The Sixth no sooner had begun
About the beast to grope,
Than, seizing on the swinging tail
That fell within his scope.
“I see,” quoth he, “the Elephant
Is very like a rope!”
======================
I told the class that the more perspectives and views we get on an event, the more likely we’ll ‘see’ the reality of it more accurately. It went over quite well.
HiJolly
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