Love Wins!

[Anonymous]

Alma’s description of hell, interestingly enough.

It’s one of the reasons I love the Book of Mormon. Some of those “details” are fascinating and really ring “true” for me.

[Anonymous]

Roy wrote:

Are you saying that progression from the telestial order to the terrestrial order to the celestial order is something that can be begun in this life and continued in the next? Are you saying that this progression might even be part of the process of atonement whereby individuals are refined incrementally by the spirit as fast as they are prepared to do so? That is wonderful to fathom! For me it can mroph the concept of the 3 degrees from an eternal pcking order into a school of love.

Yes.

Yes.

It really does change the way we see progression, doesn’t it?

Quote:

I have noted some quotes to that effect at the opening of this thread, if there are others I would welcome them. I promise not to use them to bash, but rather to make my own footing less tenuous.

Okay – let me see what I’ve got handy…

Here’s a smattering of quotes. A friend from another forum had gathered his research and I mined many of these from him. (Thanks Bob)

The names of every son and daughter of Adam are already written in the Lamb’s Book of Life. Is there ever a time when they will be taken out of it? Yes, when they become sons of perdition, and not till then. Every person has the privilege of retaining it there for ever and ever. If they neglect that privilege, then their names will be erased, and not till then. All the names of the human family are written there, and the Lord will hold them there until they come to the knowledge of the truth, that they can rebel against him, and can sin against the Holy Ghost; then they will be thrust down to hell, and their names be blotted out from the Lamb’s Book of Life (DBY, 387–88). (quoted in lesson 40 of the Brigham Young manual we used in RS/PH a few years ago)

In other words, your name is written in the BOL until you come to a full knowledge. You can either be saved or a son of perdition.

When we get through this state of being, to the next room, I may call it, we are not going to stop there. We shall still go on, doing all the good we can, administering and officiating for all whom we are permitted to administer and officiate for, and then go on to the next, and to the next, until the Lord shall crown all who have been faithful on this earth, and the work pertaining to the earth is finished, and the Savior, whom we have been helping, has completed his task, and the earth, with all things pertaining to it, is presented to the Father. Then these faithful ones will receive their blessings and crowns, and their inheritances will be set off to them and be given to them, and they will then go on, worlds upon worlds, increasing for ever and ever (DBY, 376).

Dec 1977 Liahona article (granted not an authority): Just as paradise is not the eternal abode of the righteous, hell in the spirit world is not the eternal abode of the wicked. Reporting his vision of the telestial world, the Prophet Joseph Smith wrote: “These are they who shall not be redeemed from the devil until the last resurrection, until the Lord, even Christ the Lamb, shall have finished his work.” (D&C 76:85.) He added: “These are they who are cast down to hell and suffer the wrath of Almighty God, until the fulness of times, when Christ shall have subdued all enemies under his feet, and shall have perfected his work.” (D&C 76:106. See also Rev. 20:13.) Hell in the spirit world will end for all people when they have been resurrected. Because of the atonement of Christ, they are eventually released (See 2 Ne. 9:6–12.) Those who remain “filthy still” (the sons of perdition) will remain in hell, but it will be a place separate from the hell of the spirit world. (See D&C 76:43–49.) After the sons of perdition are resurrected, the spirit world will have no inhabitants (Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, 2nd ed., p. 762.)

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1929 Elder Orson F. Whitney of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles said: “You parents of the wilful and the wayward! Don’t give them up. Don’t cast them off. They are not utterly lost. The Shepherd will find his sheep. They were his before they were yours—long before he entrusted them to your care; and you cannot begin to love them as he loves them. They have but strayed in ignorance from the Path of Right, and God is merciful to ignorance. Only the fulness of knowledge brings the fulness of accountability. Our Heavenly Father is far more merciful, infinitely more charitable, than even the best of his servants, and the Everlasting Gospel is mightier in power to save than our narrow finite minds can comprehend” (in Conference Report, Apr. 1929, 110).

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Brother Widtsoe: “In our pre-existent state, in the day of the great council, we made a certain agreement with the Almighty. The Lord proposed a plan, conceived by him. We accepted it . Since the plan is intended for all men (mankind), we become parties to the salvation of every person under the plan. We agreed, right then and there, to be not only saviors for ourselves, but measurably saviors for the whole human family . We went into a partnership with the Lord. The working out of the plan became then not merely the Father’s work, and Savior’s work, but also our work. The least of us, the humblest, is in partnership with the Almighty in achieving the purpose of the eternal plan of salvation (John A. Widtsoe, “The Worth of Souls,” Utah Genealogical and Historical Magazine, October 1934, p. 189).

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Parley P Pratt: “Thus perfected, the whole family will possess the material universe—that is, the earth and all the other planets and worlds, as an inheritance incorruptible, undefiled, and that fadeth not away. They will also continue to organize people and redeem and perfect other systems which are now in the womb of chaos, and thus go on increasing their several dominions, till the weakest child of God which now exists upon earth will possess more dominions, more property, more subjects and more power and glory than is possessed (presently) by Jesus Christ or by his Father; while at the same time Jesus Christ and his Father will have their dominions, kingdoms and subjects increased in proportion.” (Parley P. Pratt, quoted by B. H. Roberts in The Mormon Doctrine of Deity, page 257) (B. H. Roberts, Defense of the Faith and the Saints, 2 vol. 2: page 274)

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Brigham Young: [i[How many Gods there are, and how many places there are in their kingdoms, is not for me to say; but I can say this, which is a source of much comfort, consolation, and gratification to me: Behold the goodness, the long-suffering, the kindness, and the strong parental feeling of our Father and God in preparing the way and providing the means to save the children of men—not alone the Latter-day Saints—not alone those who have the privilege of the first principles of the celestial law, but to save all. It is a universal salvation—a universal redemption. (J of D, 8:35)

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John A. Widtsoe: “President Brigham Young has suggested that the ultimate punishment of the sons of perdition may be that they, having their spiritual bodies disorganized , must start over again must begin anew the long journey of existence , repeating the steps that they took in the eternities before the Great Council was held. That would be punishment, indeed! “They will be decomposed, both soul and body (body and spirit make up the soul) , and return to their native element. I do not say that they will be annihilated; but they will be disorganized and will be as if they had never been; while “we” live and retain our identity and contend against those principles which tend to death or dissolution” (Journal of Discourses, 7:57). “The clay that marred in the potter’s hands was thrown back into the unprepared portion to be prepared over again” (Ibid., 2:124) (John A. Widtsoe , Evidences and Reconciliation’s, page 213)

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President Kimball, “May I repeat, the time will come when there will be a surrender of every person who has ever lived on this earth, who is now living, or who ever will live on this earth; and it will be an unforced surrender, an unconditional surrender. When will it be for you? Today? In twenty years? Two hundred years? Two thousand or a million? When? Again, to you, John, I say, it is not if you will capitulate to the great truth; it is when, for I know that you cannot indefinitely resist the power and pressure of truth. Why not now? Much time has been lost. The years ahead can be far more glorious for you than any years in the past.

(Spencer W. Kimball, The Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball, edited by Edward L. Kimball [Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1982], 63.)

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Heber C. Kimball : “What you have agreed to do, God will require you to perform, if it should be ten thousand years after this time. And when the servants of God speak to you, and require you to do a thing, the Lord God will fulfill His words, and make you fulfill His words he gave to you through His servants. Inasmuch as you have come into this Church, and made a covenant to forsake the world, and cleave unto the Lord, and keep His commandments, the Lord will compel you to do it, if it should be in ten thousand years from this time. These are my views, and I know it will be so.” (Journal of Discourses vol, 2 page 151)

Brigham Young: “We have the privilege of honoring the stations we are in; we have the privilege, in the Lord’s hands, of preparing for exaltation. We are compared to the making of pottery upon the wheel; but the Lord never intended to show in that comparison that we were helpless beings and had no agency. Clay has so little intelligence that it is often so full of lumps that it will mar; but it is not to blame for that: but the Lord says, “You, intelligent Israel, are to blame, if you do not obey my voice; and if you are disobedient, I will serve you as the potter serves the clay that has very little intelligence. You, Israel, are capable of choosing, you are capable of refusing, you are capable of performing, you are capable of hearing counsel from my mouth and of carrying out those principles that I tell you; but the clay upon the wheel has no such intelligence; and if you do not obey my voice, it will prove that you are not worthy of intelligence, any more than the clay upon the potter’s wheel: consequently, the intelligence that you are endowed with will be taken from you, and you will have to go into the mill and be ground over again.” (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Vol, 5: 341)

Heber C. Kimball: “We will bring up a few comparisons. Now supposing brother Tanner goes into the shop, to make a scythe, and he takes the materials necessary for the formation of that scythe, is he dictated to by it (the scythe), as to how he shall mould it and fashion it? Would you have the scythe rise up and say—Brother Tanner, what do you do so for? Why do you strike me on the back? Well, it is just as ridiculous for you to undertake to dictate to President Young, or those whom he set to work. It is not for you to dictate to them. Upon the same principle, supposing I have a lump of clay which I put upon my wheel, out of which clay I want to make a jug; I have to turn it into as many as 50 or 100 shapes before I get it into a jug. How many shapes do you suppose you are put into before you become Saints, or before you become perfect and sanctified to enter into the celestial glory of God? You have got to be like that clay in the hands of the potter. Do you not know that the Lord directed the Prophet anciently, to go down to the potter’s house to see a miracle on the wheel? Suppose the potter takes a lump of clay, and putting it on the wheel, goes to work to form it into a vessel, and works it out this way, and that way, and the other way, but the clay is refractory and snappish; he still tries it, but it will break, and snap, and snarl, and thus the potter will work it and work it until he is satisfied he cannot bring it into the shape he wants, and it mars upon the wheel; he takes his tool, then, and cuts it off the wheel, and throws it into the mill to be ground over again, until it becomes passive, (don’t you think you will go to hell (mill) if you are not passive?) and after it is ground there so many days, and it becomes passive, he takes the same lump, and makes of it a vessel unto honor. Now do you see into that, brethren? I know the potters can. I tell you, brethren, if you are not passive you will have to go into that mill, and perhaps have to grind there one thousand years, and then the Gospel will be offered to you again, and then if you will not accept of it, and become passive, you will have to go into the mill again, and thus you will have offers of salvation from time to time , until all the human family, except the sons of perdition, are redeemed. The spirits of men will have the Gospel as we do, and they are to be judged according to men in the flesh. Let us be passive, and take a course that will be perfectly submissive.” (Journal of Discourses Vol. 1, pp. 159- 162)

Heber C. Kimball: “When the Lord spoke to Jeremiah He told him to go down to the potter’s house, and there he would cause him to hear His words. When he went down to the potter’s house, “Behold, he wrought a work on the wheels.” The potter tried to bring a lump of clay in subjection, and he worked and tugged at it, but the clay was rebellious, and would not submit to the will of the potter, and marred in his hands. Then, of course, he had to cut it from the wheel and throw it into the mill to be ground over, in order that it might become passive; after which he takes it again and makes of it a vessel unto honor, out of the same lump that was dishonored, because it would not be subject to the potter, and was, therefore, cut from the wheel, and put through another grinding until it was passive. There may ten thousand millions of men go to hell, because they dishonor themselves and will not be subject, and after that they will be taken and made vessels unto honor, if they will become obedient, and God will make us, who are His servants, bring about His purposes. Can you find any fault with that?

The Lord said to Jeremiah, “O, house of Israel, cannot I do with you as the potter? Behold as the clay is in the potter’s hand, so are ye in mine hand.” They dishonored themselves and were rebellious, and I have cut them off and thrown them in the mill, and they shall grind until they are passive. And I haven taken a gentler lump, to see if I cannot make a vessel unto honor. By and by that lump will dishonor itself, and be thrown back into the mill, and God will take Israel and make of them a vessel unto honor.” (Journal of Discourses, Vol, 1: 161 – 162.)

Heber C. Kimball: “Jeremiah, at the command of God, went to the potter’s house where the potter was molding the clay, and when he went to turn it on the wheel it was refractory and rebellious; and he worked at it and sweat over it, but after all it was rebellious, and fell down on the wheel. What did he do then? He cut it off from the wheel and threw it back into the mill, and after he had ground it awhile, he took it out and made of it a vessel unto honor; so of the same lump he made a vessel unto dishonor, and one unto honor. Did the potter make it dishonorable? No, the vessel made itself unto dishonor; and the next time it was pliable and passive, and the potter made of it a vessel unto honor, because it was honorable and submissive. I wished to make these few remarks, because they touch upon things that are on my mind all the time. And if you wish to be Saints, for God’s sake be Saints, and if you wish to be devils, be devils, and get out of this place; and let those that will be Saints, be Saints; and let them commune together and carry out the purpose of God.” (Journal of Discourses, Vol, 3: 162)

Heber C. Kimball: “I frequently talk about the clay in the hands of the potter. The Lord said to Jeremiah, “I will show you a thing that I cannot tell you. Go down to the potter’s house, and I will be there, but you shall not see me; and I will make that potter mar a vessel.” Jeremiah went down to the potter’s house, and the Lord showed him the very thing he had promised; for the potter undertook to make a vessel, and the clay marred in his hands, and he cut it off the wheel and threw it into the mill; “and now,” says he, “take it out again and shape it into a ball, and turn it into a vessel of honor.” He did that very thing, though it is not written. The Scriptures say that out of the same lump he made a vessel first unto dishonor, and then unto honour. I used to preach upon that in Nauvoo, and Joseph said it was the true interpretation. Now, Jeremiah was a man like brother Brigham, brother Heber, Amasa, and thousands of the servants of God that were valiant. There are thousands here that have never seen a potter’s house. But if I was in one, I could take a lump of clay and show you; and perhaps, being out of practice, it would mar in my hands: then I would throw it back into the mill and grind it, and afterwards I would take it up again and make a vessel unto honour. And thus the Lord said to Jeremiah, “As you see that clay mar in the hands of the potter, so shall it be with the house of Israel. They shall go and be in prison till I bring them out and make t. It will be just so with thousands and tens of thousands who will embrace “Mormonism:” they will go back into the mill again, through disobedience.” (Journal of Discourses, Vol, 4: 121)

Heber C. Kimball: “I do not know that I can compare it better than by the potter’s business. It forms a good comparison. This is the course you must pursue, and I know of no other way that God has prepared for you to become sanctified, and molded, and fashioned, until you become modeled to the likeness of the Son of God, by those who are placed to lead you. This is a lesson you have to learn as well as myself.” (Journal of Discourses, Vol, 5: 151)

Brigham Young: “Every kingdom will be blotted out of existence, except the one whose ruling spirit is the Holy Ghost, and whose king is the Lord. The Lord said to Jeremiah the Prophet, “Arise, and go down to the potter’s house, and there I will cause thee to hear my words. Then I went down to the potter’s house, and, behold, he wrought a work on the wheels. And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hands of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.” The clay that marred in the potter’s hands was thrown back into the unprepared portion, to be prepared over again. So it will be with every wicked man and woman, and every wicked nation, kingdom, and government upon earth, sooner or later; they will be thrown back to the native element from which they originated, to be worked over again, and be prepared to enjoy some sort of a kingdom (glory).” (Journal of Discourses, 2 page 124)

Brigham Young: “If you suffer the opposite of this to take possession of your tabernacles, it will hurt you, and all that is associated with you, and blast, and strike with mildew, until your tabernacle, which was created to continue throughout an endless duration, will be decomposed, and go back to its native elements, to be ground over again like the refractory clay that has spoiled in the hand of the potter, it must be worked over again until it shall become passive, and yield to the potter’s wish.” (Journal of Discourses, vol. 2: 136)

Brigham Young: “Some think this rather hard, but they have to be worked over, because they are in the batch. Again, they are in the mill, and like the potter’s clay which brother Kimball uses for a figure, they have got to be ground over and worked on the table, until they are made perfectly pliable and in readiness to be put on the wheel, to be turned into vessels of honor.” (Journal of Discourses, Vol, 4: 23)

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Joseph Smith: When you climb up a ladder, you must begin at the bottom, and ascend step by step, until you arrive at the top; and so it is with the principles of the Gospel—you must begin with the first, and go on until you learn all the principles of exaltation. But it will be a great while after you have passed through the veil before you will have learned them (all). It is not all to be comprehended in this world; it will be a great work to learn our salvation and exaltation even beyond the grave.” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, Section Six 1843–44, p.348)

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If a person is baptized for the remission of sins, and dies a short time thereafter, he is not prepared at once to enjoy a fulness of the glory promised to the faithful in the Gospel; for he must be schooled while in the spirit, in the other departments of the house of God, passing on from truth to truth, from intelligence to intelligence, until he is prepared to again receive his body and to enter into the presence of the Father and the Son. We cannot enter into celestial glory in our present state of ignorance and mental darkness (DBY, 378–79).

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“Here, then, is eternal life – to know the only wise and true God; and you have got to learn how to be Gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all Gods have done before you, namely by going from one small degree to another, and from a small capacity to a great one; from grace to grace, from exaltation to exaltation, until you attain to the resurrection of the dead, and are able to dwell in everlasting burnings, and sit in glory, as do those who sit enthroned in everlasting power. And I want you to know that God, in the last days, while certain individuals are proclaiming his name, is not trifling with you or me.” TPJS pp.358-359

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Elder Charles W. Penrose: “Thus the inhabitants of Earth with the few exceptions that are beyond the power of redemption will eventually be saved. And the globe on which they passed their probation, having kept the law of its being, will come into remembrance before its Maker. It will die like its products. But it will be quickened again and resurrected in the celestial glory. It has been born of the water, it will also be born of the Spirit. Purified by fire from all the corruptions that once defiled it, developed into its perfections as one of the family of worlds fitted for the Creator’s presence, all its latent light awakened into scintillating action, it will move up into its place among the orbs governed by celestial time, and shining “like a sea of glass mingled with fire,” every tint and color of the heavenly bow radiating from its surface, the ransomed of the Lord will dwell upon it; the highest beings of the ancient orbs will visit it; the garden of God will again adorn it; the heavenly government will prevail in every part; Jesus will reign as its King; the river of life will flow out from the regal throne; the tree of life, whose leaves were for the healing of the nations, will flourish upon the banks of the heavenly stream, and its golden fruit will be free for the white-robed throng, that they may eat and live forever. This perfected Earth and its saved inhabitants will then be presented to the Eternal Father as the finished work of Christ, and all things will be subject unto the Great Patriarch, Architect, Creator, Ruler, the Almighty, to whom be obedience and reverence and praise in all the countless worlds that shine as jewels in His universal crown ( Charles W. Penrose. “Leaves from the Tree of Life,” Contributor, Sept. 1881, pp. 364-65)

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Boyd K. Packer: Some years ago I was in Washington, D.C., with President Harold B. Lee (1899–1973). Early one morning he called me to come into his hotel room. He was sitting in his robe reading Gospel Doctrine, by President Joseph F. Smith (1838–1918), and he said, “Listen to this!

“ ‘Jesus had not finished his work when his body was slain, neither did he finish it after his resurrection from the dead; although he had accomplished the purpose for which he then came to the earth, he had not fulfilled all his work. And when will he? Not until he has redeemed and saved every son and daughter of our father Adam that have been or ever will be born upon this earth to the end of time, except the sons of perdition. That is his mission. We will not finish our work until we have saved ourselves, and then not until we shall have saved all depending upon us; for we are to become saviors upon Mount Zion, as well as Christ. We are called to this mission.’ ”

[Anonymous]

Mercyngrace, you *heretic*, you!

HiJolly

[Anonymous]

HiJolly wrote:

Mercyngrace, you *heretic*, you!

HiJolly

Want to know what’s funny?

I read comments by others like me who feel marginalized. And though I’ve felt that way from time to time, I refuse to move to the fringe. I’m intent on bringing my whole ward with me… LOL! And most of the members seem happy to come along. I’ve been teaching almost all my adult life and have never held back (lots of foot in mouth moments along the way – oops). Instead of releasing me, my bishops keep putting me right back in front of the ward, every chance they get.

[Anonymous]

mercyngrace wrote:

HiJolly wrote:

Mercyngrace, you *heretic*, you!

HiJolly

Want to know what’s funny?

I read comments by others like me who feel marginalized. And though I’ve felt that way from time to time, I refuse to move to the fringe. I’m intent on bringing my whole ward with me… LOL! And most of the members seem happy to come along. I’ve been teaching almost all my adult life and have never held back (lots of foot in mouth moments along the way – oops). Instead of releasing me, my bishops keep putting me right back in front of the ward, every chance they get.

I (and I’m sure most others on the board) are so glad to hear that!

As I said elsewhere on this board, in 2009(D&C, Church history) I was the adult Gospel Doctrine teacher and I strayed quite far from the manual, but practically everyone really enjoyed it, including High Councilmen, Ward & Stake leadership. And it’s amazing how that calling actually came about, considering that I have a General Church calling & usually can’t serve in the Ward like that. Last year, this year, no can do. It was surely a ‘tender mercy’.

I’ve served 10 years in my calling, and hope for another 10 before I’m put out to pasture… Until then, the Stake Pres. & Bishop can’t call me to anything else — except Bishop. Hasn’t happened in 10 years, probably won’t for another 10. :thumbup:

HiJolly

[Anonymous]

Well, I just turned 40 and am nowhere near SLC so I have a lifetime of heresy left to propagate…

Be afraid. Be very, very afraid. Bwaaahaahaahaa….

[Anonymous]

Thank you for the great thoughts and quotes.

My own personal challenge is the stillbirth of my daughter Emory. Where does she stand before God? Where does that leave me? Everything else for me starts here.

The common answer is that they (children) will be automatically saved. Is childhood death is a blessing that guarantees celestial glory for the deceased? Or is childhood death an obstacle that deprives the deceased of important mortal experiences and thus retards spiritual growth/blossoming? I have read statements purportedly from JS that indicate both the former and the latter.

My personal journey has led me to feel that our Heavenly Father loves us both equally. He does not value Emory more or less because she was denied earthly experiences. He does not value me more or less because of my earthly foibles. (I easily refuse that I could be more valuable than my daughter based on strong moral living, the other side of the coin – that every day lived is a further opportunity to descend in value {like the resale value of a car} is harder to shake.)

This has given me peace. It resonates with me. This is why it is so difficult to comprehend how people can be evaluated, judged, rated, and eternally classified into value boxes.

If I may apply this concept of eternal progression (that learning and growth are never limited) to my personal challenge, I see the following outcome:

Emory, having obtained briefly an essential body, is now being loved, nurtured, and cultivated into her full potential as a child of God. How long this may take or if the process can ever truly be complete is not important. As she turns her face to the source of light, she will shine!

I, having obtained an essential body, am now being loved, nurtured, and cultivated into my full potential as a child of God. How long this may take or if the process can ever truly be complete is not important. As I turn my face to the source of light, I will shine!

Paradoxically, this would make both of the above JS statements true. That child death deprives the deceased from many earthly experiences but that the child will enjoy alternate growth/blossoming experiences and will ultimately fulfill the measure of their creation in the celestial glory.

I admit that my experience is a very personal stumbling block that may have limited application to any others, but this is where I must lay my foundation- this is where I must build. Thank you for the helping hand.

[Anonymous]

Did any of you see Franklin Graham (Billy Grahams son) on the O’Reilly factor recently. http://hellsbell.org/2011/05/franklin-graham-on-oreilly-factor-bell-a-false-teacher-heretic/

They were talking about Rob Bell’s book Love Wins. I could not believe how Franklin dodged O’Reilly’s questions about whether someone who dies and never heard about Jesus go to hell. Franklin just kept saying the mantra of anyone who does not accept Christ on this earth will be thrown into hell because the Bible says so. It was so disgusting and he kept saying Rob Bell was a herectic and evil for preaching what he does.

I have really gotten into reading Rob Bell’s book Love Wins. It is excellent and he makes so much sense and uses good scripture to back himself up. I highly recommend the book and all his books. Very interesting and mind thinking reading.

[Anonymous]

I don’t even know how to respond to that. It makes me sick to my stomach and if true makes me think I don’t want any part of that plan nor a God that orchestrated it.

But doesn’t LDS culture teach a similar thing by requiring temple work and baptism?

[Anonymous]

No, brown, the two theologies are polar opposites.

Sure, they both say that each person needs to accept Christ, but Mormon theology says unequivocally that every person ever born will have a chance (a “real” chance) to do so. Mormon theology also posits that there will be very, very few people who will end up in “Protestant Hell”.

One note that I think is important:

Mormon doctrine about this topic evolved over the first decades of the Church’s existence. Initially, many of the statements were more exclusivist than the later statements – especially the ones that came after the temple theology was formalized.

We had a man in our Priesthood meeting today who made the statement that only those who accept Christ in this life will inherit the Celestial Kingdom – and I am positive he came to that conclusion by focusing on the earliest statements by Church leaders. (He also is close to 80, so there is that. ) Immediately, about four other men jumped in to clarify (some at length) – and one man said it really succinctly. He said:

Quote:

Most people just will have to wait a little longer to accept Christ than the people who accept him in this life.

He gave the lesson in HPG, and he talked at length about how wonderful it has been to be a janitor at a Catholic elementary school – how good it has been to move from a predominantly Mormon area and really learn to love those whose beliefs are different than his.

[Anonymous]

Mercymygrace,

Thank you for this wonderful thread and all your information. You are very wise and understanding. I have continued reading Rob Belles book, “LOve Wins” and just finished it. It was wonderful and he is definitely on the right tract. I found all the quotes you gave from church leaders very interesting. I will be doing a book review on Rob Belles book soon and post it here.

What makes sense to me is that we will be not just be judged by our works on this earth (which will always come short and what the atonement/grace/mercy is for) but by the DESIRES OF OUR HEARTS. D&C 137:9

9For I, the Lord, will judge all men according to their works, according to the desire of their hearts.

And are we not this way with our own children?

Bridget

[Anonymous]

DJ’s recent post on sin and repentance has reminded me of this wonderful thread. I am attaching DJ’s words to bump and update it. Love Wins!

DarkJedi wrote:

OK, here I am with my view on sin. This is largely attributable to Terryl and Fiona Givens as outlined among other places in All Things News, Rethinking Sin, Salvation, and Everything in Between. Before reading the book my views were pretty much in line with the Givens’ thoughts, but it was very affirming and provided the religious theological and historical background for why I believe it to be true.

We can’t discuss sin without the idea of original sin. LDS theology is pretty clear on the subject in that we are not responsible nor condemned by the original sin of Adam and Eve. The theology and doctrine of some other Christian churches is quite different from the LDS beliefs, but nonetheless still have had some influence on our views of sin in general. This is in part because of what many early converts brought with them from their former churches and subtly infused into our own developing theology (and some of these people, including Brigham Young and Parley Pratt, had a great deal of influence on those developing ideas). What other churches mostly fail at is the role of the Atonement of Jesus Christ and their view of the Fall of Adam as a great tragedy that set us all up for failure. The latter of these two ideas is not totally absent from common LDS beliefs or theology, and the Atonement of Jesus Christ is often underplayed and even overlooked. The fall of Adam was the plan, God not only knew Adam & Eve would transgress or sin, God planned on it. And God planned on each of us also sinning – it’s no surprise to God – thus the plan of salvation and the atonement. The fall and the atonement are not back up plans, they are the plan.

The common definition of sin is probably that sin is anything that is offensive to God. But it is also offense toward each other, both ideas that are alluded to in the two Great Commandments. Jesus also expounded on this a bit in his teaching to love one another as he loved us. I’m not so sure how much God is really offended by us, particularly as I subscribe more to the New Testament portrayal of God as loving Father (actually Father and Mother in my view) as opposed the punishing king God of the OT and my view of the fall and atonement as noted above. While there are likely earthly (natural) consequences to sin (offenses) in this life there are not Godly punishments – NOR are there such punishments in the next life because of the Atonement of Jesus Christ. His unending and unlimited atonement is expressly meant to absolve us of all eternal punishment and suffering because he took that all upon himself because of the love of God and the love Jesus has for us. Quoting directly from Givens in All Things New, pp 100-101:

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If my child disobeys my counsel, I am not (or not properly) angry. I do not react to protect my parental dignity I am not jealous for my parental prerogatives; I am not concerned with my parental authority, or honor, or standing. I am saddened because in ignoring the counsel borne of my love and wisdom, my child opens herself to harm, to pain, to disappointment. I do not stand ready to reward the child for obedience or to punish for disobedience; her decision to follow the counsel redounds to her good, and disobedience to her harm. . . Obedience drawn out of us from fear is but slavery. Motivated by blessings, it is but economic calculation. . . [W]e should think of obedience as a response to loving counsel rather than to divine command (100–101).

That brings us to the idea of repentance – change. Repentance is also widely misunderstood in the CoJCoLDS, and that misunderstanding is directly related to the theologies of other churches that crept into our own doctrines, theology, and teachings. Elder Russell Nelson in April 2007 said this (https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2007/04/repentance-and-conversion?lang=eng” class=”bbcode_url”>https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2007/04/repentance-and-conversion?lang=eng):

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The doctrine of repentance is much broader than a dictionary’s definition. When Jesus said “repent,” His disciples recorded that command in the Greek language with the verb metanoeo. This powerful word has great significance. In this word, the prefix meta means “change.” The suffix relates to four important Greek terms: nous, meaning “the mind”; gnosis, meaning “knowledge”; pneuma, meaning “spirit”; and pnoe, meaning “breath.”

Thus, when Jesus said “repent,” He asked us to change—to change our mind, knowledge, and spirit—even our breath.

Theodore M. Burton, a member of the First Quorum of the Seventy when there were far fewer quorums and far fewer members of the quorum, had further clarified this idea of the Greek word metanoeo in a BYU speech in 1985(emphasis added; https://speeches.byu.edu/talks/theodore-m-burton/meaning-repentance/” class=”bbcode_url”>https://speeches.byu.edu/talks/theodore-m-burton/meaning-repentance/:

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Let us now turn to the New Testament which was written in Greek. How did those Greek writers translate the word “shube” into Greek and still retain its concept of repentance? They used the word “metaneoeo,” which is a compound word of two parts. The first part, “meta,” we use as a prefix in our English vocabulary. When we eat we convert food by a process of metabolism into fat, muscle, and connective tissue. When we see a crawling caterpillar stop, attach itself to a limb and spin a cocoon, the insect inside its silken case undergoes metamorphosis. It changes its form into a moth or a beautiful butterfly. The prefix “meta,” then, refers to change.

The second part of the word “metaneoeo” is subject to various spellings. The letter “n,” for instance, is sometimes transliterated as “pn,” as in the French word “pneu,” meaning an airfilled tire. We also find “pneu” in our word pneumatic, as, for instance, a pneumatic hammer or a pneumatic drill, which are air-driven tools. It is also found in our word pneumonia, which is an air sickness of the lungs. There are several spellings of this root and many meanings attached to this word which can mean air, mind, thought, thinking, or spirit, depending on how it is used.

The Greek usage of words is similar to that of English, as, for example, with the word “spirit.” To a child, spirit might mean a ghost; to you, spirit may mean influence such as team spirit or the spirit of Elijah. But to me—since I was an organic chemist during my university years—or to a pharmacist, spirit simply means ethyl alcohol. In the context where “meta” and “neoeo” are used in the New Testament, the word “metaneoeo” means a change of mind or thought or thinking so powerful and so strong that it changes our very way of life. I think “metaneoeo” is an excellent translation of “shube.” The meaning of both these words is to turn or change from evil to righteousness and God.

But trouble came when Greek was translated into Latin. Only the educated people spoke Greek. When the New Testament was translated into Latin for the use of the common people who spoke that language, an unfortunate choice was made in translation. “Metaneoeo” was translated into the word “poenitere.” The root “poen” in that word is the same root found in our English words punish, penance, penitent, and repentance. So the beautiful meaning of Hebrew and Greek was changed in Latin to an ugly meaning involving hurting, punishing, whipping, cutting, mutilating, disfiguring, starving, or even torturing. Small wonder then that most people have come to fear and dread the word repentance which they were taught and now understand to mean repeated or neverending punishment. People must somehow be made to realize that the true meaning of repentance is that we do not require people to be punished or to punish themselves, but to change their lives so they can escape eternal punishment. If they have this understanding, it will relieve their anxiety and fears and become a welcome and treasured word in our religious vocabulary.

It’s sad to me that the meaning of the word was altered by translation. And just for added clarity, earlier in that same talk Elder Burton had talked about the original Hebrew word shube (emphasis added):

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The Old Testament was written in Hebrew and the word used for this concept of repentance is “shube:” Let me read a passage from Ezekiel 33:8–11 and insert the word “shube” along with its English translation to help us understand what repentance is:

When I say unto the wicked, O wicked man, thou shalt surely die; if thou dost not speak to warn the wicked from his way, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand.

Nevertheless, if thou warn the wicked of his way to [shube, or] turn from it; if he do not [shube, or] turn from his way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul.

When a person despairs and says: “There is nothing left for me!” “All hope is gone!” “I can’t be forgiven!” “What purpose is left in life?” “I might as well be dead!” God instructs the “watchman on the tower” to

Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked [shube, or] turn from his way and live: [shube, shube!] turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel? [Ezekiel 33:8–11]

I know of no kinder, sweeter passage in the Old Testament than those beautiful lines. Can you hear a kind, wise, gentle, loving Father in Heaven pleading with you to “shube” or turn back to him, to leave unhappiness, sorrow, regret, and despair behind and now turn back to your Father’s family where you can find happiness, joy, and acceptance among his other children? In the Father’s family, you are surrounded with love and affection. That is the message of the Old Testament, and prophet after prophet writes of “shube,” which is that turning back to the family of the Lord where you can be received with joy and rejoicing. There is an implicit message there that we in the family of Jesus Christ ought never forget. We must receive the former transgressor back into this family with open arms and comfort and bless him for making the change….

Throughout the Old Testament, a fundamental theme is forsaking or turning from evil and doing instead that which is noble and good. Not only must we change our ways; we must as well change our very thoughts which control our actions. Repentance is a turning back to God!

I know this is getting long, and my view on sin is really more complex that what I have presented. But I’ll end it here with this thought:

This life isn’t a contest to see who wins and gets the biggest mansion. We are all to be given all that the Father has. At the end there’s enough ice cream for everybody, and we all get all that we want. Our goal here is not be be mired down by our perceived misdeeds and constantly bemoaning our fallen and sinful state, but to trust that Jesus did do and will do all that he promised and to look toward God and resolve to make the changes we need to make to be better, or nicer, to each other. Like the prodigal son, God the Father is not looking to punish us (from Luke 15 NRSV):

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…while he was still far off, his father saw him and was filled with compassion; he ran and put his arms around him and kissed him. Then the son said to him, ‘Father, I have sinned against heaven and before you; I am no longer worthy to be called your son.’ But the father said to his slaves, ‘Quickly, bring out a robe—the best one—and put it on him; put a ring on his finger and sandals on his feet. And get the fatted calf and kill it, and let us eat and celebrate; for this son of mine was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found!’ And they began to celebrate.

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