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Reflexzero wrote:
Hmm this seems a bit like daylight saving time to me. Cut an hour off one end of the day, stick it in the other end, and think you are somehow getting more. In a year or so the extra number of missionaries who flooded the market due to the age reduction will level out to the similar numbers it was with 19 year olds. It isn’t like there are twice as many 18 year olds or something.
Personally I’d like to see opportunity for service missions, building wells, schools, and hospitals. Not every prospective missionary wants to knock on doors.
No, but there will be less 19 yearolds who decline to serve because life distracted them and changed their goals from 18-19. I see more 18 year olds going then 19 year olds that did before the change.
And yet one of the major complaints I get from non-members again, and again, is that they don’t want to be lectured by a twenty year old on life. Now an eighteen year old will do that instead! SamBee wrote:And yet one of the major complaints I get from non-members again, and again, is that they don’t want to be lectured by a twenty year old on life. Now an eighteen year old will do that instead!
I think that goes back to the old premise that if we REALLY were more interested in getting converts (numerically), we’d send adults (or Q12) out on missions like in 1830’s -40’s church history. I think the emphasis on sending out our youth is more focused on saving the youth (and coincidently saving “the elect” that we find along the way) than finding whole congregations of “lost sheep” to bring in.
There was a time that every ward had Stake Missionaries who were adult members within each ward. My wife & I served several Stake missions together. We enjoyed it very much. It was a great experience.
As adults, the ward membership knew us & felt comfortable refering their friends to us.
We never lectured. We taught the standard lessions which turned into friendly discussions.
We were just as successful as the FT missionaries. I don’t understand why Stake missionaries were discontinued or cut back.
Stake missions were discontinued so that the exact same thing could be done at the ward level. Fwiw, whenever I hear people complain that young men and women shouldn’t be lecturing adults about how to live, I agree – but I also point out that those young men and women aren’t supposed to be doing that. They are supposed to be serving and teaching the lessons to ensure people understand the teaching well enough to be baptized. If there is any “lecturing” to do, it’s supposed to come from the members – and those members are supposed to be whoever can related best to the individual investigators and friends / associates / acquaintances of those members.
Speaking generically, the missionaries only do it when they are going beyond their calling and when (the generic) we aren’t doing our own jobs.
There are some adult men who are “permanent students” or unemployed… couldn’t they be sent out there? Yes, I agree with the service mission comment. I would have done that. I wouldn’t have done the doorstepping version though. Quote:I think the emphasis on sending out our youth is more focused on saving the youth (and coincidently saving “the elect” that we find along the way) than finding whole congregations of “lost sheep” to bring in.
You’re probably right, but it’s the wrong emphasis. What are we doing about failed marriages (where people have been rushed into it to begin with), or converts who only stay around a couple of months, or some of the awful opinions some members continue to spout?
Quote:but I also point out that those young men and women aren’t supposed to be doing that.
I think that’s fair enough, but they are still parroting stuff, and how can they relate to some of the experiences some of us older members have been through? (When I say “older”, I’m not that old, yet, but still “old” to them)
Quote:how can they relate to some of the experiences some of us older members have been through?
They can’t, usually; members can, usually. They aren’t supposed to be able to relate directly; members are.
Frankly, I think the theoretical, “ideal” structure of the missionary program is good (missionaries teach the lessons, but the rest is handled by the members), but that’s not how it is implemented in most places. Retention isn’t usually a missionary issue; it’s a membership issue. The Church has been trying to address that, quite explicitly, for quite a while – but it’s not going to change until the membership makes the change. (and by “membership”, I include the local leadership in that) I’ve seen Ward Missions that functioned like they are supposed to function, and, not surprisingly, both baptisms and retention occur in those wards.
To delve into that fully would take a series of separate posts, but “the missionary program” works when it’s implemented as intended. (and I don’t include complicated mission plans in that, fwiw)
Quote:The Church has been trying to address that, quite explicitly, for quite a while – but it’s not going to change until the membership makes the change. (and by “membership”, I include the local leadership in that) I’ve seen Ward Missions that functioned like they are supposed to function, and, not surprisingly, both baptisms and retention occur in those wards.
Bureaucracy I suppose, and it can’t really handle individual’s emotions…
I think the main reason our retention rates are so low is the huge disconnect between the missionaries and the local members. The members are focused on their families, careers, callings, and everything else that isn’t missionary work, and the missionaries go off on their own to try to do something related to missionary work. Too many times missionaries find people on their own, teach them on their own, and try to fellowship them on their own. This works great until the missionaries get transferred and the new member is left alone with members they barely know. When I was ward mission leader I felt that my biggest job was to bridge that gap. I tried to keep the elders focused on teaching people that would be easy for our ward to retain, and kept the ward leaders focused on those people I was worried about retaining.
The biggest help was when the missionaries had an attitude of “How can we help the ward?” When the missionaries have this attitude, and the ward mission leader bridges the gap, we can retain more of our new members.
It’s my understanding that it takes 1-2 years to become a Jehovah’s Witness. The period of instruction for Catholicism is about a year. What I wonder when I see people baptised and then never show up or at best show up 1-2 times in church, is what’s the hurry. Amen, GB. A-freaking-men. Earl said: Quote:I think the main reason our retention rates are so low is the huge disconnect between the missionaries and the local members.
Back in the day, when I was Ward missionleader we had Seventies & Stake Missionaries. Both groups were very active teaching & bring new members into the church. It was a natural process of similating new members into a ward. We also were told:
Quote:Every member a missionary.
I know this is getting off topic but, what happened?I think the church has become too clinical. Our efficiency makes us very impersonal. You used to be able to pitch in and help build the chapel…when you finished it was YOUR building….and you bonded with others in the process.
When I was a kid growingup outside of Utah the missionaries were like the local heroes. The mission farewell was a big deal in that there was a sacrament where the family usually discussed the young mans journey to becoming this person willing to sacrifice 2 years of their life…..these are the only sacramament meetings I remember from my childhood. The only time my son ever said “i hope i get a mission call to ….” was after the last farewell our stake had…then Elder Ballard gave that clinical speech explaining that we don’t have any hoopla for other callings so why for this one? When missionaries came home there was another meeting telling the rest of that spiritual journey.
I understand that Utah probably went overboard but here in the sticks it created a positive culture where missionaries were seen as heroes for the Lord. Now kids dissapear and reappear 2 years later….the youth don’t even notice and their hearts aren’t stirred….and many times our ward missionaries are kind of strange kids from small town Utah. This and the de-personalization of baptisms all lead to a nice assembly line approach to church growth….to bad we are not machines that get baptized and then cough up 10%.
I think the reduction in age is a reaction….hoping to get numbers up, thinking youth will head out if they don’t have time to get distracted….it will help some…but wards no longer feel connected to the elders….and then no 70’s to continue to fellowship the new members we manage to get and things don’t look good for church growth.
Side story: our stake 4 wards in our city. 1 very strong, 1 strong, 1 struggling, 1 literally depopulating and falling apart. They announced a ward boundary change would be coming. We all met…most of us knew that the 2 struggling wards would be put together, it made sense…they shared a boundary and the leadership numbers were good. We were all stunned when they took 2 healthy wards and 2 struggling wards and made 5 wards. Everyones boundaries were changed (well…except the stake presidents ward which was untouched, and already had a huge youth prorgram but also had a lot of famlies bonding together for homeschooling and they all share a similar upper income level). I wondered why, we now have 3 marginal wards, 1 average ward, and 1 strong ward.
I have to wonder….is the church trying to make it look like they are still growing by dividing wards into smaller sizes?
Mike wrote:
I know this is getting off topic but, what happened?That’s what I would like to know. Have other church programs grown so much that they crowd out missionary work?
That was the condiluted point of my post….the church has assembly lined missionary work. It is all very clinical. Missionaries are called, a leader in the ward is called to help them…. it is their job and the rest of us don’t need to work on it. 30 years ago we were a proslyting church who’s culture was around missionary work. We had celebrations when they left and when they came home, we had all sorts of activities to draw members together and provide opportunities for non-members to “rub shoulders” with church members…..things like building the buildings, road shows, dance festivals, cool youth conferences, exciting scout trips…..mostly all of this is gone now. Church is now contained in that cookie cutter brick building where not even cookies are allowed ….heck …even the members aren’t excited anymore…so let the people who’s job it is to do “the work” worry about it…I can sit comfortably in gospel doctrine listening to the same lesson we have every four years knowing it is their job.
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