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I know similar issues have been discussed before, but I am feeling pretty down and hoped for a little support here. My husband has been very supportive of me as I have moved through my stages of belief and doubt. He has not judged my choice to stop attending the temple, not renew my recommend, or stop wearing garments every day. Our marriage has stayed about the same (in a good way) for the past few years.
But.
But the other day we were discussing some things and it made me wonder how long we can make all this work. We were talking about how we wanted to discuss different things with our kids–dating, porn, internet, etc. We are on the same page for most of it. But then I brought up how/what to say to our kids about homosexuality and gay marriage. Now, this is one issue where my husband has very little empathy. He just can’t understand not feeling totally straight and I think he doesn’t want to examine those issues very closely. So it’s easier for him to just go with the church’s line on this one.
So I was questioning out loud how/what/at what age we discuss this, and my husband said, “We will just tell them that the church says marriage is between a man and a woman.” Then he got up and started to the leave the room. I told him, “But the problem is, I don’t see it that way any more.” He didn’t respond and the discussion ended.
The problem isn’t just figuring out how we parent where we don’t agree. This episode made me feel really disconnected from him, and also made me feel nervous about bringing up other hard discussion points.
So, I guess, any advice on how to feel close to a spouse when your beliefs are moving farther apart? How do parent with different and even opposing beliefs on some issues?
Sorry. I’m sure that is hard. And scary on what the future holds. Perhaps you can try to continue to remind each other how many of all those other things you are in line with and together with, so the few things you’re not in line with don’t overshadow the relationship. That won’t make the fear and stress of these important topics around what to tell the kids go away, I’m sure. But perhaps it helps you two stay committed and trusting of each other.
I honestly think the church is recognizing the complexity of the issue these days, and so it is not so easy to just say marriage is between man and woman and no further discussion needed. When I sense other people do that and shut down and don’t want to talk about it…it is revealing something inside them and how they see it or if it is a painful topic for them, and I try not to talk about painful topics unless I have to, and then with the gentlest touch.
My advice is to agree with your husband, that the prophet says that right now. That is a truth, that is what is said by the church. But you may want to search through the LDS.org website on the issue and really get lots of information from church sources about the sensitivity needed around this issue and how they stress loving everyone. There is a lot of material to read about the subject. I try to frame my words in mormon-speak so I don’t sound anti-LDS. Because I care about others enough to take the time to be careful of their faith too.
Here is from the website:
Quote:We may not know precisely why some people feel attracted to others of the same sex, but for some it is a complex reality and part of the human experience. The Savior Jesus Christ has a perfect understanding of every challenge we experience here on earth, and we can turn to Him for comfort, joy, hope, and direction (see Alma 7:11–12). No matter what challenges we may face in life, we are all children of God, deserving of each other’s kindness and compassion (Romans 8:16–17). When we create a supportive environment, we build charity and empathy for each other and benefit from our combined perspectives and faith.
The Church provides resources at
mormonandgay.lds.orgmormonandgay.lds.org” class=”bbcode_url”> In your relationship, you may not always need to express how you disagree or see it different. Sometimes you just agree that is what the church teaches. Whether you agree with it or not is a separate issue. You may find moments when the situation is right to raise a different subject…which is…raising the questions that others out there are saying about marriage, or what to do when we don’t agree with the prophet. My kids don’t need to know all the thoughts in my head on my faith. Mostly, they are living their own lives focused on how they see things. I am there to support them and teach them correct principles. But when my kids come home from church with questions or doubts themselves, I find teaching moments to share broad-minded and loving views of things which they have appreciated more than just the black and white answers they hear at church. Even when I do that, I usually confirm the things I love about church and agree with, and they separate my different viewpoints ON ONE TOPIC vs the church as a whole. They have appreciated that and keep coming to talk to me about it, even now they are out of the house.
A good approach in the relationship can be about 3 things: The timing of when I express things (not all the time, but at the right time it can be understood), the tact I use (framing it so it doesn’t directly attack what others hold dear), and the dose of what I say (avoiding unleashing a firehose full of heretical thoughts that freak others out…but small little reasonable and well-balanced thoughts that others can digest without getting flooded).
I have found those to help keep conversations going in a loving and respectful way, even when we disagree.
Please share what you are finding you work with or struggle with. We are here to support you, and learn from how you are doing things.
I think it’s a good start that you two agree on several things and have only disagreed on this one thing. I do know that it’s possible to parent with differing views. My inlaws are in opposite political parties and they make it work. They sometimes get in debates over things but they respect each other’s views. I know because my husband grew up with a republican dad and a democrat mom, he grew up with both points of view and seemed a lot more rounded politically than I was (I was raised in a super republican family who thought democrats were idiots). So I know things can still be okay if you two have differing views. I also know many people can be married and raise kids when they have different religions. It will be hard though if one of you doesn’t respect the others views. I think respect is huge in any relationship, really, but it seems especially necessary in situations like this. Does your husband expect you to keep your views from your kids? I think that could cause resentment later down the line. You wouldn’t want to watch him teach your kids that there is only one type of marriage and you keep quiet about it, just like he wouldn’t want to watch you teach your kids that lgbt families are okay and keep quiet about it. I think a good balance would be if both of you are able to teach your kids what your viewpoints are, and not talk down about the other’s views. Eta: I would point out to your husband that it wouldn’t be fair for you to tell him ‘we’re going to teach the kids that lgbt families are okay’, and then walk out of the discussion. It’s not fair for one of you to have the final say and dismiss the other’s viewpoint. Hopefully you can both sit down again and objectively decide a good plan for what you will tell your kids. It’s got to be a cooperative effort.
My suggestion would be to find something less volatile that you also should resolve, have a loving and cooperative discussion about that. Use terms like, “together” and “consistent” as you develop approaches that encompass what you can both “agree” on. Try to come to an agreeable way forward where you both feel appreciated and valued and in which you both are fine with your “shared” approach. Then use that as an enabling springboard to (later) have discussion on stickier topics. For my wife and me, believe it or not, one of our topics that was pretty easy to discuss, but also very necessary, was tithing. Obviously, we had to both be on the same page and we had to both compromise. Tithing may not be one for you, but find one that will work that way and go from there. On the specific topic of same-sex marriage, one factor that helped me change my stance was seeing a young man raised up in our ward who was a good kid, attended Church faithfully, served a mission, but was gay. He’s now completely out of the Church and married to a man. He’s a great kid. There is nothing “wrong” with him. But he could not be happy in the Church. In a prior part of my life, I had the same views as your husband. I can understand the Church not wanting to accept SSM within its own community (I hope this will change someday, but I understand it at present), and I allow that the Church has that right, but I actively support SSM as a secular right, completely unrelated to the Church. With that in mind, an approach is to tell your kids that we don’t practice it in the Church, but we
and we support all people in their seeking happiness however makes sense to them. In fact, we are champions of the downtrodden, in our family, etc, etc. In other words, separate the civil and the religious. But like I said, I think that’s a discussion for later. To drive home a bit more on what On Own Now said, you can bring up that Elder Christopherson said you could be a member in good standing even while supporting SSM, as long as you were not pushing the church to change. And I am trying to remember if Pres Monson has ever explicitly talked about this. He seems to shy away from it.
Just posting to say that if you have a queer kid (and you really have no way of knowing – kids closet themselves), backing up the church’s teachings on the topic can be quite harmful to them. This isn’t a topic where it’s just a matter of taste. What the church teaches about LGBT issues can have serious long-term effects on your kids that they may have to work through with a therapist. There is a reason that queer teens and young adults have 4x the risk of suicude compared to straight kids. And the odds of having a queer kid aren’t all that low. 5-10% of kids are LGBT. ydeve wrote:
…the odds of having a queer kid aren’t all that low. 5-10% of kids are LGBT.
Exactly. One thing I often express to Church people when talking about it all is that probably our own ward primary has a kid who is gay, they just don’t know it yet, and I hope the ward will be supportive of that child.That is what I would focus on–the fact that one of your kids could be gay, and even if not, there is no question that they will have gay friends. It’s not possible to manufacture prejudice, especially not when it’s not prevalent in society now. Maybe give him some space. Even when we teach our kids all of our beliefs (whatever they are), those dang kids often go off and do their own thing. My neighbor across the street is a died in the wool athiest. And one of his kids became a devout Evangelical. Every time I talk to my neighbor, he shakes his head and says, “What did I do wrong.” Give yourselves some space. This transition is going to be multi year deal for both of you. Whether together or separate. He is yearning to feel your support of him as much you want it from him. Put this one away. If you feel a need to “defend” begin with the gentle changes the church is making. Point him to Mormonandgay.org. Reference Elder Holland’s remark from conference. Copy the story Ray posted the other day about Elder Costa. Share with him the Elder Christofferson has a gay brother. If need be remind him Dick Cheney has married gay daughter.
But do it kindly. For you it’s this arena. In my marriage it was alcohol. I have strong opinions on alcohol, none of it is from religion. My husband doesn’t. We have come to a pretty medium road but it took us both a few years to come to it. He rarely partakes. But it was big for us.
I think I might pick my battles on this one. Technically the church does teach that marriage is between a man and a woman. That is a true statement. Especially if this conversation with your kids is not immanent – I might put a pin in that one. BTW, DW and I often vote on opposite ends of the political ticket and that is ok. We try hard to respect each other in our differences. For my own kids right now (11 and 9 years) I am working to get them to see their bodies as amazing machines AND to help them feel loved and supported in our home. I feel like those are some of the overarching principles that apply to a variety of topics and that DW and I can find broad agreement on.
Even without differences of belief, couples encounter differences of opinion from their spouse in parenting. I agree with those who say it’s important to give time and space for respect to flourish, and to pick your battles. I also have a personal philosophy that “pronouncements” are not helpful. How I came to that conclusion with a lifetime of watching fast & testimony meetings, I’m not sure, but it always seemed to me that life is a journey, and we are constantly learning & changing. Focusing on taking stands makes the process of growth much more difficult.
I had a couple of quick thoughts. Stayforthedip wrote:
My husband has been very supportive of me as I have moved through my stages of belief and doubt. He has not judged my choice to stop attending the temple, not renew my recommend, or stop wearing garments every day. Our marriage has stayed about the same (in a good way) for the past few years.Sometime when things are calm make sure he knows you notice and appreciate this. I’m not suggesting being fake and manipulating him with your “praise” of his behavior. But since you do count yourself lucky to have his tolerance on all this, it might be good to make it clear.
Quote:The problem isn’t just figuring out how we parent where we don’t agree.
If this really isn’t the problem then my advice is to not make it the problem. Try to do things as a family that unite you. I try not speak in secret with my kids, but say what I have to say out in the open. It increases the trust.
Quote:This episode made me feel really disconnected from him, and also made me feel nervous about bringing up other hard discussion points.
It’s the distance and wariness of each other. It’s sad and difficult. I try to remember that he’s feeling it, too.
Quote:So, I guess, any advice on how to feel close to a spouse when your beliefs are moving farther apart?
I had to deliberately bring things into our relationship, or bring things back from earlier times in our marriage, that had good associations and potential to bring us together. I’m not in autopilot anymore, agreeing with him about most things said and done at church, or happy to socialize 99% of the time with LDS friends. Find things to fill the voids.
Quote:How do parent with different and even opposing beliefs on some issues?
One thing is to not borrow trouble. I don’t know how old your kids are. But Elder Renland just talked about bigotry (for possibly the first time?) in General Conference. I think we are finally waking up as a people; we can’t joke about this anymore. How does your husband talk about LGBT people? If his attitude right now is to steer clear of the subject and follow the prophet – and he isn’t inculcating your kids with hatred and intolerance for gay people – that might be the best you can hope for right now.
It sounds like he’s been pretty good with your disaffection so far. I would simply not mention this issue. This is obviously something he feels strongly about, particularly since he up and left when it came up last time. I would consider, as your kids get older, presenting both sides of the issue to them, though if they come to you. For example, I have on occasion said, when my daughter asked me about the SSA issue, that people are divided on it. The church says “X, Y, Z” about SSA and gay marriage”, I explained, also focusing on its compassionate side (respect for them as individuals, allowing activity in the church as long as there is non-expressions, although they are certainly not fully satisfying to gay people). On the other hand, there are many members that don’t agree with the church’s stance, or find it hard to accept. Their arguments in favor of gay marriage and equality for gay people are that [insert[…… Also, teach them about the plight of a gay person in the church to help them develop empathy. Talk about the loneliness, the suicides, etcetera.
I then let them know I hope they can make their own decision, but that I personally feel [insert your own feelings].
In terms of strengthening the marriage, I have this advice. Read
http://www.marriagebuilders.com . The author, a Christian, Harvard educated, PhD marriage counselor, has an approach to sustaining love in marriage that involves meeting the emotional needs of your spouse. Also, avoiding Love Busters he calls them — things that detract from love. It’s simple — read over the basic principles. I think dissaffection from church is a kind of love buster, so I would minimize discussion about differences in religion on issue he feels black and white about.Disagreements over religion can withdraw love from the relationship. I see it in my own marriage. So, you have to compensate in other areas. So, find out what his emotional needs are. You probably know what they are, but the marriagebuilders site, and their Emotional Needs Questionnaire can provide you with even deeper insights. Make a conscious effort to really, really meet his emotional needs in other ways. This, I believe can compensate for the differences of opinion regarding the church in your marriage.
If I was to give an extreme example, some people have a high need for financial support. This is all through his Marriage Builders philosophy. Notice how some women are willing to marry older, ugly men if they are wealthy – Larry King, Donald Trump, Hugh Heffner. The needs met by the financial support compensate for the guy’s unattractiveness. I know that sounds shallow, but I believe relationships are somewhat like that — ultimately there needs to be something we get out of our relationships that are positive to keep love alive. There is a kind of self-interest in them. And there has to be — even as there is in service. The rewards may be extrinsic, or intrinsic, but they normally have to be there in some format for the service/relationship to exist.
So, if your husband has a high need for recreational companionship (he loves you partly because you spend leisure time together), then up your participation in meeting that need. If he has a high need for Admiration, then make a conscious effort to show even more of you your genuine admiration for his good qualities.
I saw this principle once on a site for struggling marriages. One thread was on spouses who don’t help with cleaning the house. This really crass, coarse guy got on the thread and made a really short comment, but it showed the compensation factor. It’s a bit rude but it made me laugh at the time. He said “My wife is lazy and won’t lift a finger around the house. It’s a good thing she bangs like a porn queen or I’d be out of this relationship altogether”. Not exactly Mormon-standard language, but it shows how the compensation factor worked in this guys marriage to keep love alive. Physical fulfilment is another emotional need that marriagebuidlers.com recognizes as valid, so it compensated for this guy’s wife’s lack of help around the house, and kept love alive.
In my own marriage, conversation is a high need for my wife. I learned that when she wants to talk to me, unless the house is burning down, I have to drop everything and give undivided attention until she is done chatting. I try not to leave until she’s done either. This deposits massive love units into our emotional bank account. So, being proactive in initiating conversation is really important for our marriage. Family commitment is also important to her, so I do go to church more regularly than I would otherwise to keep her happy. It’s a major reason I’m still involved — to meet her need for family commitment.
After years of reflecting on marriage and the role of charity in it, I came to the conclusion that love/charity in marriage is expressed by meeting the spouse’s emotional needs. When that means doing something you otherwise would not do — that’s meaningful service in marriage — increase your attention to his emotional needs. So when he does the cost-benefit analysis of your marriage, he thinks “she’s not fully active in the church, and has some unorthodox ideas, but she is a great recreational companion, committed to our family, and we get along in so many other ways, I love her”. And so, after looking at the pros and cons, decides love is alive and wants to keep the relationship intact.
There is some great advice on this thread to ponder. I wanted to add a thought….i hope you are finding a safe place at home to be yourself and share your thoughts and beliefs and doubts. Maybe that is a process too as you confirm there is nothing to fear, you’re not changing or being scary…youre still you and a good person. Perhaps you can find support here from friends to allow time to help carry the relationships while working through things and letting fears subside.
But relationships are 2 way. While you can try to do things to frame your feelings to him…i hope you also feel supported and loved for your sincere efforts in these painful areas also.
It is not only you that should show patience with him, you should have it equally returned too…and I hope and pray you get that in your marriage as you journey on.
Just want you to feel supported that you are OK the way you are. I’m confident God thinks so.
Two simple pieces of advice: 1) Love him. Make sure he knows that hasn’t changed at all.
2) When the right time comes to talk about this (or any other issue), do it privately. Never do it in front of your kids or where they can hear you, unless you can do it in a healthy way.
It is healthy for your kids to know you disagree with each other about some things, since that tells them it’s okay if they see things differently, as well. It is not healthy for them to see you argue about stuff, if it doesn’t happen in a loving, friendly, gentle way.
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