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So, the story is this. I had to facilitate Teacher’s Council today. Since last month, I toyed with the idea of doing it on the 7 Ways of Inviting the Spirit. It is an approach where you consciously bring the Spirit into a lesson or meeting. You go in planning that objective. I was going to model that approach in the actual teachers’ council. You use prayer, scripture, testimony, priesthood ordinances, music, spiritual experiences,prayer, and expressions of love to God and People. You inject them into your lesson in a conscious, planned way to bring the spirit into the your meeting or lesson.
Anyway, when I sat down to plan it out, I “shrunk” from the task. I am not living the gospel the way the church says I should do it. My testimony is probably best described as agnostic now.
I still can teach with the spirit now and then, but I haven’t tried this 7 Ways of Inviting the Spirit teaching method in about 6 years. And it is probably the most spiritually taxing form of teaching I have ever been involved in. And it pits you against doubts and feelings of contrariness toward the church.
Anyway, it worked. The spirit was thick. I felt the spirit very strongly as I was used to doing at the height of my testimony. The three people that were there were fully uplifted. One had tears in her eyes. The others were moved and thanked God for being present in our class. At the end all three asked me how we could get more people to come. One took pictures of the boards where I had notes listed, and others wanted my lesson plan. It was very spiritual.
I left the class feeling clean and swept inside.
How can I invoke the Spirit this way? How can I believe the things I do about the church now, yet still be able to teach spiritually powerful lessons this way? How can I move people in this context about which I have so many contrarion feelings and ideas? How can I consciously invite the Powers of Heaven into a meeting and have those powers respond immediately? Tell a testimony building experience about Joseph Smith with power and spirituality, and strengthen others’ testimony in the process when I choose to neither believe nor disbelief that story at this point in my life?
How can I do this when I am not even close to being a traditional or “true”, “loyal” believer, and many of my feelings about the church right now are not positive? I don’t get it I wonder if I am simply using universal principles that charismatic people in other contexts use, and that it has little or nothing to do with the truth factor in the church.
Short answers while I sit here feeling antithetical to the current lesson on “Becoming Perfect”. 1) TBM Response: The Spirit will testify and bear witness of truth. The voice of that truth doesn’t personally have to believe it or even be worthy. If truth is being taught, then the Spirit can testify of that truth.
2) Non-believing response: You create an environment where people’s personal desires and beliefs can be confirmed and an emotional response will likely be present and reaffirm those desires. It’s part of the LDS culture and partly expectation bias. Take a person from a completely different culture and set of beliefs and they likely wouldn’t have the same experience. Human beings are emotional creatures, and it is not that difficult to create atmospheres and situations where it is easy to elicit emotions. This happens in every religion, culture, and everywhere where there is human experience. All those feelings mean is that we are humans having a human experience. These experiences are even more powerful when shared, but they do not connote objective truth.
3) Agnostic response: That’s a cool experience but I don’t know what it means. Maybe it comes from a higher power or just from being human. I don’t have any way to know which of these it was, but I liked the experience – it was motivating and empowering and I’d like to seek more of these.
Cool no matter where it fits. Where I live it snows sometimes. It’s not annual. The amount varies when it happens. Yet it happens. I have lived here 30 years. Science always has some explanation why it happens. But those always change. It doesn’t always happen during el Nino or la Nina. Nor when the summer has been extra hot. Or as a response to global warming or ocean tides.
However it gets here – we party in it. And we carry happy memories for ages because of it.
Enjoy your post snow party.
I like to accept the good spiritual experiences as they happen, and not explain them away with the nuance used to try to make sense of questionable things, but accept them as I feel they happen in my heart. Don’t complicate the spirit more than it already is. You must have spoken truth, and the spirit testified.
Perhaps God also wanted to remind you of these things, and the goodness to be found in simple straightforward basic mormon teaching principles.
I believe the adage that “God moves in mysterious ways”. He can work through fake gurus, disasters, suffering and even the uncovering of falsehoods as much as true believers, blessings, joy and the discovery of truth. A few months back I undertook a study about the relationship between obedience and the Holy Ghost. Guess what I found? There is no scripture that makes that connection. I believe that idea has been manufactured by modern Pharisees. It is not that the Holy Ghost departs from us when we sin, rather our own guilt and fear keep us from feeling the influence of the Holy Ghost. I used to work in a prison. Despite it being a vile place full of vile people guilty of the most grievous of sins, the Spirit can be felt there – but it’s not easy for it to overcome our own feelings. I’m happy for you, SD. I will rejoice with you while you rejoice. There’s no need to second guess or analyze anything – if God wants to “speak” to you, God will do so. We should not undertake to limit God’s power in our own minds because we don’t and can’t comprehend it (at least now). We all know Joseph Smith was far from perfect and sinned greater than most of us have – yet it seems God continued to speak to him. If God is no respecter of persons, then why should the same not be true for us?
Like DT I’m not sure what “the spirit” really means, although I’m probably between #1 and #3 on his list. I always felt I could tell the difference between spirit and just emotion / nostalgia. Teaching truth can be a very powerful spiritual experience. That’s not dependent on the church structure, our flawed leaders, the sexist temple, or anything other than teaching truth. Quote:A few months back I undertook a study about the relationship between obedience and the Holy Ghost. Guess what I found? There is no scripture that makes that connection. I believe that idea has been manufactured by modern Pharisees.
This was also something I discovered on my mission. I wrote the president about it in one of my letters. Forgive me for quoting 22 year old me, but here goes:
Quote:“What did I learn this week? Well I guess I was thinking about how I hate the word ‘obedience.’ I think a lot of missionaries use it as an excuse for personal shortcomings: “I should be more obedient. That’s why we’re not baptizing.” Obedience loses its meaning from overuse. Obedience isn’t rule #1-#458; it’s an attitude. It’s not something that comes in towards us (confining us, restricting us)—it goes out from us, toward God. It’s a ‘kingdom first’ attitude. What’s best for the kingdom of God? When we put that first, we have truly caught on to the spirit of the law. A lot of people think the ‘spirit of the law’ means of each individual law or rule. Not so—it’s of the law in general, of law in general. That’s why it’s so important to know God & Jesus Christ—because these are the two requirements to get into the celestial kingdom: 1) personally knowing Jesus Christ, and 2) having the glory of God being our continual desire—truly his will being our will—becoming one with God. That’s what it means.”
Now, first of all, what a Mormon trait – taking words and changing their meaning – but what I really meant was that obedience to rules is not important, that’s it’s weaker and more superstitious than really understanding the nature of God and doing good because of that understanding. I’m not sure how well I expressed it, but that was what I meant. We make “the law” an idol. We worship our own obedience.
Hawkgrrl – Quote:We make “the law” an idol. We worship our own obedience.
Amen.
DJ –
Quote:Despite it being a vile place full of vile people guilty of the most grievous of sins, the Spirit can be felt there – but it’s not easy for it to overcome our own feelings.
I have heard from others that sometimes the spirit is most strong in prisons. Talk about our glasses being dark. Why wouldn’t a loving parent send extra to the most pained children. At least that is how I like to imagine Him.
Don’t over-analyze this. Take it as a gift – one you needed now. Old Timer wrote:
Don’t over-analyze this. Take it as a gift – one you needed now.
I didn’t think I was overanalyzing, but I will say this — I wish Mormons who think in black and white could experience what I have experienced today. So they can see that God appears to value anyone who is being sincere.
As some of you know, just a couple weeks ago a close friend suggested I should just leave the church and look for truth elsewhere given my current church orientation. What a short-sighted, black and white view, that ignores the value I was able to create (with God’s help) for people who came to church today.
What is strange is that when I was in another period of less activity, and not holding a TR, I had a Bishop who, after 2 or 3 years, I opened up to a bit about why I wasn’t more active and involved, and had no TR.
He knew the fragment of my story at that time; it was over 20 years ago.
At one point he walked up to me and said “I’m not worried about you, because every time you speak, I feel the Spirit”. To him, a person who is teaching with the Spirit, is someone not to be worried about.
One thing was true today — I sincerely wanted the people in the class to go back into their classes and create significant value for their classes. I wanted the class to have a spiritual experience. Perhaps pure motives can eclipse the LDS version of personal righteousness when it comes to invoking the powers of heaven.
Others might ask me “How can you NOT want to hold a TR after you have received yet another witness by quoting LDS scriptures, and sharing the gospel teaching training your received at the feet of GA’s 30 years ago…??”
Answer — I have no idea, but my current, unorthodox attitudes seem no less valid in spite of the spiritual experience today. It’s not changing my behavior in any way…I will be on essentially the same trajectory I am right now, in spite of the experience.
What you said just triggered a memory for me.
Quote:At one point he walked up to me and said “I’m not worried about you, because every time you speak, I feel the Spirit”.
I was at a leadership retreat, and one of the other participants was a man who was grieving for his wife who had recently died of cancer. He knew I was Mormon, and he said he had seldom met a more spiritual person than I was, but he said he hesitated to tell me that because he hadn’t met many Mormons who were truly spiritual and not just religious. He wanted to be clear to me about what he meant because they weren’t the same thing at all.
hawkgrrrl wrote:
What you said just triggered a memory for me.
Quote:At one point he walked up to me and said “I’m not worried about you, because every time you speak, I feel the Spirit”.
I was at a leadership retreat, and one of the other participants was a man who was grieving for his wife who had recently died of cancer. He knew I was Mormon, and he said he had seldom met a more spiritual person than I was, but he said he hesitated to tell me that because he hadn’t met many Mormons who were truly spiritual and not just religious. He wanted to be clear to me about what he meant because they weren’t the same thing at all.
Interesting. It seems to throw out the idea that God blesses only the righteous with spiritual power. Perhaps that’s how these charlatans (Jim Jones, etcetera) manage to get control of so many people in their religious sects, even though they are not honest.
It also sort of throws out the idea that the Spirit, or whatever it is, testifies of truth.
I was also bewildered on my mission. One of my companion’s nicknames among the other missionaries was “Satan”. It sounds kind of harsh, I know, but that’s what I was told after our companionship ended. He was very abrasive, was always commenting on the bodies of girls, and in general, didn’t strike me as the prototypical righteous missionary. There were times he yelled at me and a few times got really angry and verbally abusive over routine matters.
Before I went home, I spent time with one of the AP’s on the mission, and I commented on how this guy could be so unexemplary, but then could go into a teaching situation with a non-member and carry the Spirit.
The AP said. “It’s because it’s all up here” [pointed to his head].
Now, here I sit in the last quartile of my life wondering what the heck the Spirit actually means…and what the pre-reqs are for being able to invoke it. I know that pure motives are important, but I wonder if God honors it even if it’s only in the moment, and not a reasonably enduring characteristic of the teacher.
I have spiritual experiences at the local Assembly of God church. I like the music. I like the sense of inclusion and acceptance. I like the people standing with outstretched arms. I like the sermons. I like how occasionally when someone is in need, some members will gather around that person lay hands on them and pray for them. First time I saw it I was a little weirded out. Now I feel that being in the center of that circle and receiving an outward manifestation of your community’s support must be powerful. Sometimes non-Mormons will ask about my church affiliation and I tell them, “I am Mormon but I enjoy supplementing my spirituality.”
I personally do not worry about where it comes from or what it means. I do not interpret it as a sign from God. It does add value to my life and I try to enjoy it in the moment.
DarkJedi wrote:
A few months back I undertook a study about the relationship between obedience and the Holy Ghost. Guess what I found? There is no scripture that makes that connection. I believe that idea has been manufactured by modern Pharisees. It is not that the Holy Ghost departs from us when we sin, rather our own guilt and fear keep us from feeling the influence of the Holy Ghost.Fascinating! I’d never thought to check this commonly taught doctrine against the Standard Works.
Offhand, I can think of only a few possible scriptural references to connections between obedience and the Spirit.
My reading of the first sacrament prayer is that being
willingto keep the commandments is a prerequisite to having the Spirit. Unfortunately, the text itself is ambiguous. But if actually keeping them is required, as it seems most members understand the prayer, then the idea of the Spirit cleansing us from sin makes no sense; its job would be to comfort and guide those who obey perfectly. (This is pretty much how I was taught as a child that it works.) Still, even with that reading, it doesn’t say we can’t have the Spirit without keeping the commandments. The multiple scriptures that say the Spirit of God doesn’t dwell in unholy temples are usually understood as implying that every sin disqualifies us from having the Spirit. But that doesn’t make sense for the same reason that the common reading of the sacrament prayer doesn’t make sense: it doesn’t allow the Spirit to cleanse. Also, their context talks of open rebellion and wickedness. Also-also, according to the D&C, we’re already holy: the Lord’s favorite name for his people is “Saints”: those who are sanctified, or holy. I doubt he meant it ironically.
There’s D&C 1:31:
Quote:
31 For I the Lord cannot look upon sin with the least degree of allowance;
But let’s not forget context:
Quote:
32 Nevertheless, he that repents and does the commandments of the Lord shall be forgiven;33 And he that repents not, from him shall be taken even the light which he has received; for my Spirit shall not always strive with man, saith the Lord of Hosts.
Apparently, we get some time to work things out before the Lord yanks the Spirit from us. It doesn’t say how long.
The most directly stated relationship I’ve found is in Elder Bednar’s October 2010 conference talk:
https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2010/10/receive-the-holy-ghost It relies on the sacrament prayer, and talks about how reading the scriptures, attending the temple, etc. are ways to always remember. It doesn’t say there aren’t other ways.
There’s also this talk by President Monson in the April 2013 conference:
https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2013/04/obedience-brings-blessings It references D&C 93:26-27:
Quote:
26 The Spirit of truth is of God. [Elided from the talk: I am the Spirit of truth, and John bore record of me, saying: He received a fulness of truth, yea, even of all truth;]27 And no man receiveth a fulness unless he keepeth his commandments.
The way it’s quoted in the talk makes it sound as if it’s “the Spirit of truth” instead of “a fulness of truth” that we get from keeping the commandments. Most members probably wouldn’t see much of a difference, but it’s there.
At a seminary activity, my son and I watched part of a talk by a CES bigwig from yesteryear. He testified that he and his wife had invited the Spirit more fully into their home by throwing out PG-13 movies, increasing daily scripture study from 15 to 30 minutes, and other things related to personal righteousness. No mention of love and service, even in the context of a Church program such as home teaching. It was all I could do to not audibly gag.
I served in a mission that emphasized obedience heavily. It probably became that way because it was so hard to baptize: the only thing really under a missionary’s control was his or her exactness in obeying the rules. It didn’t escape my notice that some of the least obedient missionaries baptized the most. At the time, I explained it away as them being good salesmen, and consoled myself in the almost certain knowledge that those families couldn’t really be ready, and would be inactive within months. (Weird thing to be consoled by, but I was bitter.) Now, I understand that it was a combination of that, and that they just had a way of connecting with people that I didn’t have.
I realized a few weeks ago that Joseph Smith wouldn’t have been able to pass a modern temple recommend interview at the time he introduced the endowment, at least if he’d answered honestly. Not obeying the Word of Wisdom doesn’t count because it wasn’t binding at the time. Honest in dealings with fellow man? Nope, baldly lying in public about polygamy and polyandry. Anything in conduct toward family not in harmony with the teachings of the Church? Well… ask Emma.
The only thing I can figure, and I think this is backed up well by scripture, so thank you DarkJedi for pointing it out, is that the God in the Standard Works doesn’t actually care much about worthiness as we understand it in the Church.
Quote:He was very abrasive, was always commenting on the bodies of girls, and in general, didn’t strike me as the prototypical righteous missionary. There were times he yelled at me and a few times got really angry and verbally abusive over routine matters.
We had a name for people like that in my mission: Zone Leader.
Quote:I served in a mission that emphasized obedience heavily. It probably became that way because it was so hard to baptize: the only thing really under a missionary’s control was his or her exactness in obeying the rules. It didn’t escape my notice that some of the least obedient missionaries baptized the most. At the time, I explained it away as them being good salesmen, and consoled myself in the almost certain knowledge that those families couldn’t really be ready, and would be inactive within months. (Weird thing to be consoled by, but I was bitter.) Now, I understand that it was a combination of that, and that they just had a way of connecting with people that I didn’t have.
Yes, this is so important for people to understand. We’ve got a lot of wrong-headed thinking about what creates success in missionary work.
I had a crush in the Netherlands that I was writing when I was serving. We were the same age, so of course, he went out 18 months ahead of me since I’m a woman. We were both in Europe, but his mission was very low baptizing and ours was the highest baptizing in Europe at the time. Some of those baptisms were iffy, sure. He said “You guys must be so obedient down there to have so much success,” and I laughed heartily at this crazy idea. There was a lot of autonomy where I was, and the focus was on working hard and having courage to talk about baptism as early as a street contact. His mission made people go through all these hoops to join the church. The people you teach have their own agency. Your obedience is not a key driver. It has more to do with your ability to see the potential in people and to listen to them and care about them wherever they are.
When you get so focused on your own stuff, on controlling things that aren’t controllable (like investigators’ choices), personally I think you lose the spirit because it’s all about you. You cease to make the sacrifice that you should be making to make the one that’s easier, that puts you in control. Any fool can pat him/herself on the back for following a bunch of arbitrary rules. Not everyone can talk to another person and connect with them wherever they are.
Well, that and northern Europe is very atheist and much less friendly to outsiders whereas we were mostly working with religious people in Spain who were open and warm if you were talking about Jesus.
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