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mercyngrace wrote:hawkgrrrl wrote:
-NFs seek meaning and want to make a difference in the world for people. When the church’s aims conflict with their causes, they will pursue their causes before the church. Additionally, they may object to the corporate, impersonal (administrative) aspect of church.
Like you M&G, I relate to the above. But for me, my aims were generally in harmony with the Church, but policy and scripting of methods for doing things stood in the way of my achieving those aims. And, I certainly don’t like the corporate ways of doing things.
I have no interest in the pleasure-seeking types, however….
You can also analyze activity from the Gallup Strengths philosophy. There are 32 “strengths” that people possess in different intensities. Gallup gives you your top 5.
After reading their descriptions, you can see how my top strengths conflict with Church culture:
Ideation: tend to be creative and like bizarre ideas….beacuse they are creative. Doesn’t fit in the Church with its scripted ways of doing things.
Responsibility: People with responsibility take ownership and get really demotivated when they are on a team with people who don’t keep commitments…..a common occurence in the Wards I’ve been in — nothing gets done. My energy wanes.
Achiever: Judge the quality of their day by what they accomplish. So much Church work involves spinning wheels and not getting anything done…..ix-nay on the Church as a place to get energy.
Intellection: Well, need we say more about that. I think it was BKP who said intellectuals are one of the threats to the Church. Not a lot of room for philosophical discussions in the Church because most of the philosophy is given, engraved in stone, and questioning is not encouraged.
Individualization — this means different rules for different people (to me). It’s opposite is Consistency, which is rules that are consistently applied to everyone. Ix-nay on getting Individualization fulfilment in the Church given the rules, consistently applied to all.
I’m dead in the water based on these personality tests….dead in the water!!!!!
Silent Dawning, I used to share some of your strengths and they became stumblingblocks for me. I was a high achiever and responsible to a fault. This made me a go-to person but it also made it very difficult for me to work by committee. I was unduly judgmental and critical of both myself and others because I had expectations that were unrealistically high.
I’m still a philosopher when it comes to the gospel and a friend told me just recently when I was pondering some questions aloud “You think too much.” LOL. I’ve learned to be okay with unanswered questions because I have a clearer picture of the destination and am less concerned with the specifics of the route. Where I used to overthink and overanalyze and fill my mind with doubt and insecurity, I now experience and ponder and am filled with awe.
I still tend to see different rules for different people but I see that as a good thing. After all, doesn’t God judge us not only by our works but by our motivations – our thoughts and intents? He sees our hearts and our circumstances. Hard and fast rules fail to account for the wide range of individuality that exists among His children. This kind of merciful approach is perfectly aligned with the gospel. (Sometimes you have to remind others of that…
If you feel dead in the water, call on the One who turns water into wine.
mercyngrace wrote:Silent Dawning,
I used to share some of your strengths and they became stumblingblocks for me. I was a high achiever and responsible to a fault. This made me a go-to person but it also made it very difficult for me to work by committee. I was unduly judgmental and critical of both myself and others because I had expectations that were unrealistically high.
That’s where I struggle — I don’t get it when people agree to do something, show up for a meeting, take an assignment, contribute, and then don’t follow through, don’t call, and don’t do what they said. I wonder, what’s the point? And then I feel that I’m wasting my time. The flashes of progress and the “if ye shall labor all your days crying repentence and bring one soul unto me, how great shall your joy be in heaven” doesn’t cut it for me. There is too much to be achieved to waste time like that. I’ve never been able to reconcile that. How do you reconcile the fact that you can waste A LOT of time in situations like this M&C? Lowering expectations only frustrates me personally.
Quote:I’m still a philosopher when it comes to the gospel and a friend told me just recently when I was pondering some questions aloud “You think too much.”
I get that ALL THE TIME. “You think too much”. Or this one “Just don’t think about it”. But mental activity characterizes my life. If I’m not thinking, reading, problem solving planning, strategizing, doing, writing then my mind is COMPLETELY BORED. That’s part of what makes Church so hard.
Quote:I’ve learned to be okay with unanswered questions because I have a clearer picture of the destination and am less concerned with the specifics of the route. Where I used to overthink and overanalyze and fill my mind with doubt and insecurity, I now experience and ponder and am filled with awe.
Well, here is my version of what you just said, which I sent to someone in an email a while ago:
Quote:I’m not sure I believe in absolute truth anymore, even though I believe God directed me to join the LDS Church, which claims absolute truth. I think God may direct people into different paths provided the experience produces some net good in the long run. He tolerates our false beliefs, and possibly misguided doctrines and thinking, and may well correct it all in the end, provided the net result is good.
I do the same thing with my students. If the class is weak, and there is a way of simplifying a concept which in the end, is incidental, but enabling, I may reduce it in simplicity, or even tolerate an error if helps them cross the finish line. After they have mastered the concepts, they are far more comfortable with the nuances and the finer points of how they got there. I often wonder if God does the same thing — let’s us believe the frail and incomplete truth within our own microcosm — even erroneous claims to absolute truth — figuring he’ll correct the finer points later
That’s how I’ve been trying to reconcile my testimony with the jarring weaknesses and things which I don’t like about the Church.
Quote:I still tend to see different rules for different people but I see that as a good thing. After all, doesn’t God judge us not only by our works but by our motivations – our thoughts and intents? He sees our hearts and our circumstances. Hard and fast rules fail to account for the wide range of individuality that exists among His children. This kind of merciful approach is perfectly aligned with the gospel. (Sometimes you have to remind others of that…
The proof, for me, is in the BoM when Nephi was told to murder Laban. It showed me that God is Utilitarian (the philosopher John Mills kind – who said “the greatest good for the greatest number”). The principle of refraining from murder was secondary to preserving sacred records. Now, I’m not advocating murder, but I see that commandments are more flexible than we may have thought — including the commandment that you have to be baptized into the only true Church to have salvation….
God is a complicated person, that’s for sure, and as he says his thoughts are not our thoughts…..
[quoteIf you feel dead in the water, call on the One who turns water into wine.
I think that’s what got me into this conundrum in the first place!!!!!
I feel like I am doomed too. INTP = Introverted thinker. I don’t really value social groups, rules or authority and I like to figure things out on my own logically. What could the church possibly offer someone with a personality type like mine. :wtf: Brown wrote:I feel like I am doomed too. INTP = Introverted thinker. I don’t really value social groups, rules or authority and I like to figure things out on my own logically. What could the church possibly offer someone with a personality type like mine.
:wtf: Brown — you sound like you’d make a good financial clerk, except there would be a few rules to follow, as in any financial position.
Brown wrote:I feel like I am doomed too. INTP = Introverted thinker. I don’t really value social groups, rules or authority and I like to figure things out on my own logically. What could the church possibly offer someone with a personality type like mine.
:wtf: I’m not sure, but let me know when you figure it out.
Well, actually, I have an idea or two. Yeah, us rationals can take it or leave it. Usually, leave it. But just like in a marriage where we sometimes rise to our best in the most trying circumstances, parts of the church experience can lead to personal growth in ways that wandering off alone can never do. At least that’s my theory.
Quote:What could the church possibly offer someone with a personality type like mine?
The meta-level cosmology / theology and, when the cultural crap is removed, the allowance to seek the mysteries of godliness – to believe that there ALWAYS is more out there waiting to be discovered. Iow, there might be issue with “The Church” – but it really is the only place where that stunning Gospel can be found, even if it takes some sifting in many wards and branches or has to be explored individually.
That just doesn’t exist in the rest of Christianity – or almost any other organized religion’s theology in quite the same way. Seriously, I’ve studied almost everything there is, and “pure Mormonism” and its cosmology truly is unique.
Can you define what you mean by “cosmology” in this context? “View of all things physical everywhere” is what I mean when I use it in a religious discussion. I picked up the term in college and have used it ever since. It’s a separation between “God” and “the creation”. Ray, I do appreciate your response. However, my problem is that “church” is none of that and it never will be. Church is “follow all these rules on this checklist and get to heaven”. No thinking or logic involved and if anyone spots on inconsistency (which is what INTP do best) you are told to “just have faith”. I have a lot more faith in things that aren’t logical fallacies! I think that is why many of us ended up at this site. The big picture of Mormonism makes sense. How it is being carried out at present usually does not. So then what do you do with a church that doesn’t seem consistent with its own teachings?
Brown wrote:Ray, I do appreciate your response. However, my problem is that “church” is none of that and it never will be. Church is “follow all these rules on this checklist and get to heaven”. No thinking or logic involved and if anyone spots on inconsistency (which is what INTP do best) you are told to “just have faith”. I have a lot more faith in things that aren’t logical fallacies!
I think that is why many of us ended up at this site.
The big picture of Mormonism makes sense. How it is being carried out at present usually does not.So then what do you do with a church that doesn’t seem consistent with its own teachings? I think this is a VERY fair response Brown. Yes. I agree, the church has become a “follow the checklist of rules to get to heaven” culture. It is my frustration as well – (I am a INFP – an idealist.)
I do agree with Ray, that “pure Mormonism” does have value for us — but it is so hard to find and “practice” in the church today. It has become devalued by 85% of the active members who don’t care about it and don’t want it. The church is run by Guardians, because they are “loyal” to the cause, and their goal is to help EVERYONE else be just as loyal to the church as they are — hence all the “rules, obedience, follow the prophets, and just have faith” centered teachings we find today. I think if one wants to find and practice pure mormonism in the church today, one has to be skilled at how to talk and converse and have all these strategies of how to visit with the devout orthodox members. You have to walk a tightrope – you have to walk carefully in a glass shop. Sadly I’m just not that kind of guy.
Quote:Sadly I’m just not that kind of guy.
and, as cwald, knows, I am that kind of guy.
Quote:My problem is that “church” is none of that and it never will be.
Noneof that? Hogwash – and I say that with a huge smile, not upset in any way. Anyone who really believes the LDS Church is NONE of that is either reacting totally emotionally or just not looking – or is confined in cwald’s branch and unable to see anywhere else. 😆 🙄 :wtf: :crazy: (and I am 100% certain even cwald, when pressed, would say that “the Church” isn’t “none of that”.)Neverwill be (the pure ideal)? Amen; couldn’t agree more. It never will be the ideal. Check. Yup. Correct. Absolutely. Ain’t gonna happen. However . . .
It is to varying degrees in nearly all locations, and, to a small degree, it is more fully where I attend because I am there. It also is at the top more than most members who struggle at the bottom realize.
Quote:So then what do you do with a church that doesn’t seem consistent with its own teachings?
Deal with it – partly by realizing that it’s true of ALL churches, but more importantly by finding your own acceptable terms of engagement. Be an agent unto yourself and strive to live the perfect Gospel (knowing you’re not going to be able to do so completely) in an imperfect church. Realize that your effort to do that is NO different than the effort of those around you in the VAST majority of cases, so cut them the slack you desire for yourself. Realize that
they might seem to be the problem, but YOU are the answer.I don’t mean to be flippant when I say that. I know it’s a painful answer at first to a painful question. It’s just the only answer I’ve found that works – and the principle really does work, no matter if you stay or leave.
Ray, I really enjoy your answers and they always give me a lot to think about. Thanks for taking the time to comment.
INFP here…every single time I take the test I come out INFP. But supposedly so was Mary the Mother of Christ, which means if the church is full of Guardians and we Idealists don’t fit in, at least I’m going to be in good company. :shh: Hawkgrrl, How much of one’s personality do you think is nature/nurture?
I can definitely see my parents’ influence in my personality. I can also see how traumatic events in my life have completely altered my value system making me much less judgmental and much more aware of others.
Just curious,
MnG
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