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SamBee wrote:
I’ve never been a member of a branch as such because I never joined the LDS while I lived out in the country. I’ve lived in the city for years now. Do they differ from wards much? Is a BP much the same as a bishop?
They are pretty much the same, they do the same things, call people, accept tithing, set apart people in callings, they do Temple Recommends.
It is like having two guys , one is a Janitor and the other a custodian. Same job, different title.
I have heard it is supposed to take a minimum of 12 MP holders to set up a ward. The church really shoots itself in the foot over things like this. There are a few obscure rules surrounding branch presidents and bishops. Functionally they are the same but (and it’s been a while, I could be wrong):
Branch presidents do not have to be MP holders. I believe this rule can only go into effect when there are no ‘worthy’ MP holders to fill the role, making this an
extremelyunlikely occurrence. You have to be married to be a bishop but a single person can be a branch president. Again, I think there might be qualifiers that make this a rare occurrence, (shooting from the hip) like this is only a rule in a district (org when there aren’t enough people to form a stake) and it may also follow the policy of when there are no ‘worthy’ married men to fill the role. This is how FT missionaries (the young ones) can be tasked with being a branch president in places where the church doesn’t have a strong foothold.
SamBee wrote:
I have heard it is supposed to take a minimum of 12 MP holders to set up a ward. The church really shoots itself in the foot over things like this.
The latest rules are:
Wards (US & Canada): 300 members; 15 active, full tithe paying MP holders
Wards (Other): 150; 15 active, full tithe paying MP holders
Rule of thumb: One active, full tithe paying MP holder per 20 members, so if a ward has 500 members the expectation is that it have 25 MP holders.
Branch (part of a stake): 20 members; 4-6 active, full tithe paying MP holders
Branch (part of a district): no minimum number of members needed but should have at least 4-6 active priesthood holders, one of which should be a full tithe paying MP holder.
I view it as a pure logistics thing. Policy/doctrine dictates that certain callings require certain offices in the PH. You’d have to have some minimal number of MP holders just to staff all the requisite callings. Also there’s the question of having enough MP holders to administer PH blessings (as home teachers/ministers).
I wonder if that number would revise downward now that the high priests group is no longer required (freeing up 3-4 people that otherwise would have had a calling in that group). Probably not, as smaller units have been combining PH quorums all along.
:thumbup: That’s actually really interesting. We definitely have 15+ tithe payers here, but one per twenty members? We’ve over a thousand on the books, mostly inactive.We also have several able members who are divorced or are single mothers.
I think we do make it hard for branches to grow into wards. For example, they often expect the members to go to the building, rather than build where the members are concentrated. Our ward boundaries are clearly drawn by outsiders. In one area, they haven’t taken into account petty rivalries between towns, and/or public transport routes
For one, I think we scale the people to the expected programs as opposed to scaling the programs to the people. The solution is often people in smaller units ending up with multiple callings. nibbler wrote:
For one, I think we scale the people to the expected programs as opposed to scaling the programs to the people. The solution is often people in smaller units ending up with multiple callings.
Yeah, sometimes that works sometimes it doesn’t. We have fluctuating numbers of kids. 10 years ago we had a lot of YW/YM, and nursery children, now it’s one or two.*
* By the way, this isn’t a downward trend, it’s varied a lot with families. It’s been up and down within that time. Last six months it’s started going up again. Many people have had to move out of our ward for financial reasons to the commuter belt. I think it illustrates the problems. Two or three couples moving, plus several kids, shifts the demographics. Elder’s Quorum expands and contracts too. Although we have a number of members locally, many of the callings are filled by various couples – it’s not nepotism so much as reliability.
Another thing you can do is encourage him to take a long term view. If you can’t get away from the lack of belief you are feeling, indicate there are shades of belief and people change all the time. Tell the story of what I experienced once — a guy in my HP Quorum who wouldn’t give me the time of day. Testimony was in the crapper. Then fast forward 5 years and I’m less active and he’s in the Bishopric. Same with a former RS president I Home taught. She was totally inactive, but liked having me over. Fast forward 5 years — I’m less active and not as believing, and she’s RS president again. Tell him to avoid looking at you with a snapshot and let you grow again….
Anyway, the point is to GET OUT OF THERE AS FAST AS POSSIBLE. These guys are not professionally trained, and in my view, have no business in half the issue in their job descriptions. They can do more harm than good. They impose sanctions because someone during a particular phase of their life is having issues, which only makes it worse. Get in, and then get out as fast as possible. Whatever vague generalities you need to use to stop the hammer from coming down, or going down the path of full disclosure — do it. And don’t implicate StayLDS either….one person here was required to stop posting here as part of his “repentence” process when he was considered apostate due to unbelief.
SilentDawning wrote:
Anyway, the point is to GET OUT OF THERE AS FAST AS POSSIBLE. These guys are not professionally trained, and in my view, have no business in half the issue in their job descriptions. They can do more harm than good. They impose sanctions because someone during a particular phase of their life is having issues, which only makes it worse. Get in, and then get out as fast as possible. Whatever vague generalities you need to use to stop the hammer from coming down, or going down the path of full disclosure — do it. And don’t implicate StayLDS either….one person here was required to stop posting here as part of his “repentence” process when he was considered apostate due to unbelief.
I have my fingers crossed that my husband will un-schedule the appointment (he is the branch secretary). My husband is more comfortable (probably forgot/not focusing on) my current position because it is not currently causing him a headache. He talked to his mother (who loves me a lot) and they are open-minded and understanding. So now Hubby can talk to them about it if he needs to. I am OK with this because a) he needs someone to talk to and he doesn’t have you guys, b) he has to mourn/progress and I can’t help him with it because I am the catalyst, c) I would rather get any consequences established so that I know what the new baseline is (plus, I was pretty sure they wouldn’t cut us off because I am not antagonistic and we have the last grand babies).
We wound up missing church on Sunday – it was a collective-we-don’t-have-the-energy-to-corrall-the-troops-and-be-there type of day. But we did watch and talk positively about 3 really good General Conference talks and rested. I am on the phones as technical support for my full-time position, so I get peopled out really easily these days.
I will continue to post here because this is my lifeline. I am not sure what “repentance process” they can entail. If they want my recommend, they can have it. I don’t have any callings – I just serve the Primary organization when they need me to do so on a Sunday-by-Sunday basis. I am going to minister to my list of sisters in or outside their record-keeping. If the organization pushes enough, I would probably not attend church and not allow my daughter to participate in the limited Achievement Days we already do. I believe I have been trained in how to avoid a leadership showdown, and I intend to review the pertinent threads and avoid the situation as much as possible. I don’t want to do anything out of spite, in haste, or out of anger. I am EXCELLENT at controlling my temper and guarding my tongue.
UPDATE: The meeting with the branch president went pretty well. While I knew that our branch president went from being a Catholic to being LDS, I did not know that he took a side tour of Atheism/Agnosticism as well.
When he asked if there was anything he could do to help me, I requested that he counsel with the R.S. Presidency to get the sister who ministers to my family re-assigned to a specific sister who has experience with working with additional needs families and faith transitions. The current ministering sisters would be fabulous (they haven’t ministered to me officially yet) – however, I have concerns that what my family and I needs at this juncture in our lives is not what those sisters can offer us – because they have large, traditional, typical developing families and testimonies. I saw him write it down and he mentioned something to my husband, so we shall see.
I also requested that my husband and I be partnered to minister together because that is the best way for us to make sure that we minister to others. I can set up appointments and start conversations, but I stall out when thinking about the treats it is best to give or making meals. My husband does not start conversations due to social anxiety… and setting up appointments is not his thing – but he makes fabulous food and deserts. My husband and I function a lot like coals in a fire – when close enough in what we do, we transfer energy back and forth between each other and sustain a lot of light. When we are pushed away from each other, the energy and momentum dies.
The branch president advised me to still take the sacrament, and to still be involved. He invited me to send him questions if I need to (he has taught seminary for years and is a good reader/researcher). I will probably never take him up on it between reading past threads on this board and plying my questions here (why be limited to 1 sympathetic expert when there is a whole slew of them here?), I think I am good in the question department.
:thumbup: I really like this update. Thanks for sharing. I needed to read this today. I particularly was struck by:
AmyJ wrote:
when close enough in what we do, we transfer energy back and forth between each other and sustain a lot of light. When we are pushed away from each other, the energy and momentum dies.
What a great way to frame it to your BP and your spouse. There is so much truth in that statement. Wow.
AmyJ wrote:
He invited me to send him questions if I need to
You are blessed with some good people around you. I am probably like you and wouldn’t know if I would take him up on it…but even the gesture he gives is a sign of christ-like love. Be thankful to God for that.
If anything, some questions to him may help you see how he responds, and how he views things. Get him to talk about his views so you know if you can trust him or not…how open he really is.
For example…Word of Wisdom is an easy one to lob out there…since it seems so 1830s simplistic health wisdom of the day that took legs of it’s own and became something different than what we have in the D&C. Does he really think it is important? Can a person drink coffee and still have a temple recommend? IDK…you could push the envelope a little with him to see his reaction to things. While also reassuring to him the things you share on this board, which is that you are an honest and sincere seeker of truth…and have a good heart…and am who you are and hope there is room in the church for sincere seekers like yourself. Confirm to him you are not angry or a disruptor…but part of the orchestra of the ward with your own voice.
Does he accept you as you are?
Can he have honest discourse?
Does he understand the struggles members of the ward go through?
Are you a good reminder to leadership that all are not alike in the ward?
God bless good people with good hearts. I am late to the party on this thread, but read through it all with anticipation on the outcome. I’m so glad that it went well! I also hope that you and your DH can continue to find peace. I nearly cried as I read this (in a good way)
AmyJ wrote:
He made it clear on several occasions that he would rather be with me in my problems/experiences/challenges then let me handle them alone.
Even though I’ve stated my concerns from the pulpit, I’m still very careful about how and what I share with people. And as my feelings vary, as you stated as well, sometimes I don’t share anything (as it will eventually change again anyway).
I have a good feeling for you as I think about it.
LDS_Scoutmaster wrote:
Even though I’ve stated my concerns from the pulpit, I’m still very careful about how and what I share with people. And as my feelings vary, as you stated as well, sometimes I don’t share anything (as it will eventually change again anyway).
Good advice. Especially the realization that feelings change. So…if you state one thing…then feelings change and makes sense to you internally…others still seem to have an opinion based on what they’ve heard. So…the “don’t share anything” approach sometimes is wise.
It is usually of benefit to listen, and observe, more than speak.
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