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Cadence wrote:
I just don’t think the average TBM type can comprehend that someone really believes the church is false. It has to be sin or laziness of some kind.
It just does not enter their mind that the church is wrong it must be the individual.
If you have that viewpoint your brain has to develop resins for people leaving.
I would agree with Cadence.I would say this about a lot of things in the world…like how some people view islamic countries or many other things in life. We see it from our perspective until we see it different.
I would also say that applies to people who think the church is false and the TBMs are misguided or close-minded or naive. That would be the other side of the same coin.
I remember reading a lesson years ago when someone indicated they didn’t believe in the church anymore to a GA. the GA responded “What commandment did you have trouble keeping??”. A very smug, and judgmental answer to a statement of disbelief in my view. Someone once said “only assume the best of motives in people”. I think I read it in a parenting book a few years ago about assuming that when our kids make mistakes, they were acting out of the best of intentions. At least, assume that until you have clear evidence otherwise. Such an initial assumption of good intentions assumes trust in the individual and strengthens the relationship between the non-believer and the TBM. If you immediately assume they don’t believe because they are uncommon sinners then the conversation is over and the TBM has no influence on the person’s faith.
So, when you look at why people disbelieve, their motives are often simply a search for the truth. They want to live their lives according to what is reality — not something made up and fraught with logical, biological, historical and even significant moral deficiencies. Others enter a faith transition because they took Moroni’s promise and got nothing. Sometimes people don’t believe because their life experiences have shown them the gospel does not make them happy. So, their motive is to find a set of beliefs that help them achieve the object and design of our existence — the pursuit of joy. What is wrong with that?
Often, the corrollary of not believing is a lack of interest in certain commandments. Commandments which, without the one true church premise behind them, don’t seem to make sense. For me, coffee abstinence doesn’t make sense anymore (but I don’t drink it out of tradition, respect for my familial beliefs, example to my son who needs SOME kind of religion in his life). Tithing in the quantities the church demands also makes very little sense to me, particularly when my life experience tells me they tend to be tight fisted whenever I have had reasonable, non-financial needs in their power to help me fill. Needs that are at the heart of the gospel and our 3 or 4-fold mission. A lot of other commandments suddenly take a back seat to following your heart and doing what seems logical when faith leaves.
That is my bit of empathy toward people who doubt. Never will I assume they simply didn’t want to live the commandments so they changed their beliefs to match. That may be true with some people (the person who caves in on chastity before marriage and, to reduce the tension, decides to believe chastity isn’t important), but I’m never going to assume right off the bat that’s the real reason. Because often, it isn’t. Often doubts are a result of good intentions.
LookingHard wrote:I heard about a technique called “deep canvassing”
Quote:https://youarenotsosmart.com/2016/07/18/yanss-080-deep-canvassing/ It is where you can get someone to think about their position on an issue via a set of questions. I almost think this is what I learned of as the Socratic method of teaching.
As I have stated, I am fine with others having a strong belief in the church. I do have a desire to have them less disparaging of those that decide to leave. I have wondered if there are a set of questions that could be had with a member where the member could come away at least a bit less judgmental and dismissive of those that leave AND ACTUALLY FEEL GOOD ABOUT THAT CONCLUSION!
I would love to see a set of questions and see this modeled.
I’d also like to see a Mormon-speak set of questions. Especially one that isn’t full of bitterness and snark.
Like Holy Cow said, maybe it’s important to keep it personal. So it’s just presented as, See, this is what happened with me, step by step…not saying it applies to anyone else. Just that for me there is a logic to where I’ve ended up, a logic rooted in what the church itself taught me.
One that I think about is how we appeal to people’s innermost beliefs, the things they “know” are true, but that their current church doesn’t teach. Well, OUR church teaches that thing you’ve always believed! Like eternal families, for instance. Or that God won’t condemn the unbaptized Indian man who never heard the name of Christ. In that exchange we’re telling people to trust their gut, that voice that tells them what’s what. I would just say that joining the church doesn’t mean I gave up listening to my gut. There is something inside of me that still guides me with no regard for the borders between churches.
SilentDawning wrote:Someone once said “only assume the best of motives in people”. I think I read it in a parenting book a few years ago about assuming that when our kids make mistakes, they were acting out of the best of intentions. At least, assume that until you have clear evidence otherwise. Such an initial assumption of good intentions assumes trust in the individual and strengthens the relationship between the non-believer and the TBM. If you immediately assume they don’t believe because they are uncommon sinners then the conversation is over and the TBM has no influence on the person’s faith.
There is a wonderful quote that I have learned when dealing with special needs children but also applies to all children and even more broadly to all people:
“Children do well when they can.”
The idea is that all children want to do well. But sometimes they can’t. To understand that children would do well if they could is hugely paradigm shifting. It removes the ability to stigmatize and write off a child as someone who just does “not care” enough to make it happen.
I remember knocking on the doors of the inactive with my EQ president. I remember thinking that I was helping Jesus find lost sheep. 12+ years later maybe I think I was among the lost. I have attended other church groups. It is refreshing to hear something different. It is also good to know I can stop attending these churchas and I won’t be harassed for not attending. Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G530AZ using Tapatalk
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