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Jacob wrote an excellent post on By Common Consent with the above title. Feel free to excerpt quotes and provide them here, if you want: “Men, Sex and Modesty”( http://bycommonconsent.com/2013/06/18/men-sex-and-modesty/ That’s a great article, Ray. Understanding the subject in that way is what has made my sex addictions for me more manageable. Great post. I am still exploring the idea that was so succinctly stated on another BCC comment: “Male skin = normal, Female skin = sexual”
There are several comments that seem to reaffirm that if a woman wears something revealing she is drawing attention to her body and inviting inappropriate thought by men. If young men engage in a game of “shirts vs. skins” are they drawing attention to their bodies and inviting inappropriate thoughts (including truly disgusting and dehumanizing ones) by women? So yes, I find that many of the modesty arguments begin to fall apart as I imagine the role reversal.
This is not a unique Mormon double standard – I remember lots of hubbub about a female soccer player that removed her shirt in an act of celebrating a goal similar to how her male counterparts had acted in like situations. She had a sports bra on underneath and her actions were not sexual. I also remember a major network (NBC?, ABC?) highlight reel of female athletes from the Olympics. It certainly appeared to be admiring their bodies lasciviously. The absence of female body builders or shot putters make it seem that they intentionally focused on the young, slender, and “sexy” female athletes. Should these women not have competed? Not have donned the uniform? Stayed home? Where does it end? I particularly liked the diagram in the BCC post that had the women that are most covered to be the most pleasing to God and the least vulnerable to Satan. Do we really think that God is more pleased with his Muslim daughters than his Mormon daughters because of how they dress? Is God unpleased with his Olympic athlete daughters?
Let’s say that a pubescent YM has a sexual thought: 1) Big deal. I’m no expert but from my personal experience this was near constant. 2) Why is my thought the problem or even concern of anyone else? I’m all for being respectful and seeing others as fellow humans first and honoring their divine nature – but if I get aroused or even linger on my arousal, why is this anyone else’s concern. At the end of the day I am a normal-ish human and if I have some sexual thoughts I accept them and move on. As my children go through puberty, I think the best thing I can do for them is to reassure them that this process is normal and not to worry about it. The sex drive is divine and good …and so is he/she.
So in the end I am ok with people dressing in certain ways to honor themselves and their Creator. I am not ok with people telling other people that they should/need to dress in certain ways and if they don’t they are not honoring themselves or God. I am really troubled when people treat other people disrespectfully. Period. Full stop.
:thumbdown: Modesty in this context seems to mean dressing in such a way that avoids any emphasis on the body that would emphasize the woman’s (that’s basically who we’re talking about) sexuality. The problem is it doesn’t work. The more the body is hidden the more it becomes a matter of fantasizing for someone who’s not used to seeing people as physical sexual beings. The elder’s new companion was used to seeing women as they are and seemed able to separate his normal sexual feelings from their appearance. It’s not like being inoculated but a matter of getting used to who we are under the clothes. You see the same thing in children who are raised in open door homes. No mysteries about how people are and how people look and no need to turn someone into a sexual object. There’s a story about Pres. McKay and a parade in Provo. Some people complained to him after about girls on a float in swim suits and his reply was that he didn’t see anything that was not beautiful. We’re sexual beings but that’s not a reason to objectify us.
What I keep wondering about with this topic, is why are women’s clothes more revealing than men’s (generally)? I really want to know. Is it the fashion industry that creates the look, and women just buy into it because that’s what becomes stylish? Or is there some component of women wanting to attract men and showing lots of skin for that purpose beyond just comfort in the heat? I am not at all against women wearing what they want, but just as a sociological observation, I want to know if skimpy clothes are for sexual reasons or something else. Because if it was just for comfort from heat, then there would be more men wearing tiny shorts and spaghetti strap tops. But these things are associated with being feminine so it seems like it is something else. journeygirl, it’s evolutionary (a survival of the fittest instinct to attract men and ensure protection), cultural (look at the fashion and celebrity industries, where “innovation” and “attention” are paramount), biological (there is a physiological difference between women’s breasts and men’s chests), power-political (most communal leaders throughout history have been men, and they think more about women’s bodies than about men’s bodies), etc. It’s a complex, fully human issue, and it is influenced by just about every aspect of communal life. It’s not a simple issue that can be fixed easily, but I like the concept of leadership teaching the correct principle, without specifics (modesty meaning moderation in all things, not just those related to sex and our bodies), and governing ourselves. In that way, this topic is no different than tithing (individuals determine how to pay, based on a general principle), Word of Wisdom (individuals determine how to be spiritually and physically healthy without unnecessary addiction), church attendance (individuals determine how much time they can spend in church-related meetings while maintaining a proper balance with family, job, community, personal health, etc.), and on and on.
True modesty allows us to do and be more than we can at any extreme – and that’s interesting to consider when our ultimate goal is to be “perfect” – meaning “complete, whole, fully developed”. Extremism inhibits that type of perfection, while modesty allows it.
I want to share a comment that just posted in the original thread. It is beautiful, and I wish it could be read in every congregation in the Church. Quote:As a mother of three sons, two of which are now married, I know the goal to help them respect women and themselves. Recently, my son finished a mission to Peru. His native companions from various parts of the country seemed to look passed half-dressed or ‘what we consider -to-be-immodestly-dressed-females’ and stay focused on their work as missionaries. The American, especially, Utah / Idaho natives serving missions there were in a constant state of anxiety and fear. The Peruvian native missionaries revealed their secret.
It is reverence and respect.
The body is a beautiful masterpiece. It is deserving of reverence and respect. It is most beautiful as it comes into the world, naked, newborn, fresh from Heaven.
Have reverence. Respect your feelings. To look, turn your head, and stare at anything God has created, because it is so beautiful, is healthy.
As a young teenager, at age 16, I was banned from the end of summer – Seminary Swim Party — unless I came wearing a thick, long t-shirt over my one piece bathing suit. My swimsuit was a very modest, racer back, high necked bathing suit made by Speedo. I was a surfer, and a gymnast, but had large breasts. The mothers of the guys in my seminary class complained about the size of my breasts and how I was immodest in anything I would wear.
When I received the message from my seminary teacher, I cried. I loved to swim. The guys in my seminary class were all good friends. None of them ever made flirty or lascivious comments, or even remarked about the size of my breasts. They were respectful. They taught me to surf.
I went to the seminary party, but decided to wear a new dress I had bought for the coming school year. I sat at a table poolside and watched with incredible jealousy as other girls swam, played and had fun with all the guys. That fall, my senior year, I was nominated and came in second place for ‘best figure’ among the girls in my class. I dreaded that title. I wished so badly, I had been voted, ‘most talented’ or ‘most likely to succeed’.
I am 50 years old now, and a grandmother of four. I hope to continue to teach reverence and respect. As an artist, my favorite study has been portrait and drawing the human figure.
God placed Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden.
And they were naked.
And not ashamed.
Old-Timer wrote:I want to share a comment that just posted in the original thread. It is beautiful, and I wish it could be read in every congregation in the Church.
Quote:God placed Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden.
And they were naked.
And not ashamed.
Body acceptance is looking at someone naked or clothed as the case may be and taking them as they are. Everybody’s decent, clothed or not, and we’d do well to remember it.
I found that comment from Mother-of-three-boys to be heartbreaking that she could wear something that was by Mormon standards modest and still be banned because her own body was curvaceous. It is so so wrong to treat our women this way, to make their very bodies enemies. This fills women with self-hatred and fear, and it is just wrong on every level. I decided a long time ago that I was going to dress for me, not for other people, because I don’t control their reactions. If I’m attractive, it doesn’t matter what I wear – I may be ogled. If I’m not attractive, it doesn’t matter what I wear – I may not draw attention. How attractive I am is in the eye of the beholder generally speaking. I don’t invite unwelcome attention; nobody does (that’s why it’s unwelcome). I wear what is appropriate to the activity. I wear a bikini to the beach or at my pool, but not to church or work. I wear professional clothing to the office but not to the gym. I wear church clothes to church but not to work in the yard. If I were in nursery again, I would consider wearing pants for that calling, and I certainly wouldn’t wear dry clean only clothes. Beyond that, we’re just creating an environment of hostility toward women.
hawkgrrrl wrote:I found that comment from Mother-of-three-boys to be heartbreaking that she could wear something that was by Mormon standards modest and still be banned because her own body was curvaceous. It is so so wrong to treat our women this way, to make their very bodies enemies. This fills women with self-hatred and fear, and it is just wrong on every level.
I decided a long time ago that I was going to dress for me, not for other people, because I don’t control their reactions. If I’m attractive, it doesn’t matter what I wear – I may be ogled. If I’m not attractive, it doesn’t matter what I wear – I may not draw attention. How attractive I am is in the eye of the beholder generally speaking. I don’t invite unwelcome attention; nobody does (that’s why it’s unwelcome). I wear what is appropriate to the activity. I wear a bikini to the beach or at my pool, but not to church or work. I wear professional clothing to the office but not to the gym. I wear church clothes to church but not to work in the yard. If I were in nursery again, I would consider wearing pants for that calling, and I certainly wouldn’t wear dry clean only clothes. Beyond that, we’re just creating an environment of hostility toward women.
Amen. I have nothing to add, but I am just so sick of it. Sick of the whole topic. Sick of women in the church sniping at each other. Sick of (mostly) men telling women and girls in the church how to dress. It’s warped. And here we are with new round of Facebook chatter about women’s bathing suits. (There’s a video I haven’t watched. All I’ve seen is everyone taking sides on my news feed.)
Hawkgrrl,Ann…I agree with both post in total! I am tired of the church making body parts that are NOT sexual in western society sexual! Women’s shoulders and knees are NOT sexual! Please stop teaching our YM/men to be turned on by them and giving everyone else a free pass to judge one another! And for the love of all that is holy please stop teaching adults and children alike that children’s shoulders and knees are immodest!! It is sick to teach kids that they can even be sexual to an adults eyes!
It is crazy what is happening to our culture. When did any sexual thought become a automatic sin? Church leaders are mistaken if they think YW/women are leaving the church because they have bought into the sleazy culture outside the church. No, women are leaving because they have no voice when it comes to the church. Add to that the constant internal shame ingested about the female body from all sides of the church (modesty/chastity/virtue/walking porn) and being responsible for OTHERS sins” is it any wonder that many YW/women are leaving? We don’t teach principles anymore. It seems as if allowing people the opportunity to learn and govern themselves has been replaced with a desire to control everything out of fear. Particularly when it comes to the female body.
What I found interesting is that it wasn’t the young men who were concerned; it was their mothers. That tells me one thing that actually is encouraging:
Youth are more open and less dogmatic than adults.
We all know that, but the encouraging thing to me is that our youth right now (and I am including young adults in that category) simply see the world differently than their parents and grandparents and are moving into adult roles at an earlier age than previously – especially the young women. I really like that movement, because I believe it will change the way we talk about things like modesty.
One simple yet important example of that is missionary attire for young women. My daughter sends pictures regularly, and her mission has a mission blog where pictures are posted regularly. What the young women are wearing in those pictures is modest, by the best definition of that word – but much of what they are wearing would not have been allowed back when I served. The colors, the way the clothes fit, the styles – almost everything about their clothing is different than when I served, and that is a very, very good thing. Seriously, my daughter can wear a stylish pencil skirt and blouse combination that doesn’t hide her figure in any way, and she is seen as modest – as she is. My daughter doesn’t have to worry about the reactions of the mothers, even while she is serving a mission. If such attire now is approved for missionaries, it won’t be taken away when they return. Most of them won’t allow that, and the young men who serve missions with them will be used to seeing them dressed that way.
It seems like a little thing, but when it comes to culture, it’s not as little as it seems.
We had a decent lesson in elders quorum about the law of chastity, even if one of our members went on a tangent with his comments. But why too often does modesty always have to be related to the law of chastity. That association needs to change a little bit. Two thoughts: One: It is usually women chastising women regarding modesty. It is rarely the men that have a problem. Men in general like women dressed in just about anything. I am not going to speculate as to why women attack each other, but that’s just my observation.
Two: Nature plays a role here. It’s been proven that men are more visually stimulated by the opposite sex than women. It is the same reason pornography users are 97% male. We get turned on by simply looking at women and the more a women accentuates her body, the more we are drawn to look. Yes we can exercise self-control, and the vast majority of men do, but nature is nature.
I agree with the thoughts, Brown. I just we weren’t so visual so often. I probably has a lot to do with our testosterone.
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