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I received the following Facebook message privately from a friend who read today’s post on my personal blog entitled “Men, Sex & Modesty” (a link to BCC and a post with that title written last summer – http://bycommonconsent.com/2013/06/18/men-sex-and-modesty
Ray, thank you for tirelessly addressing this topic. It’s so, so important that we stop this senseless female shaming. I have stayed away from publicly speaking about this because it’s a painful one for me. If I could post my comments anonymously on your post, I most certainly would.
We recently had a YW Leader meeting to plan an activity on being a lady. Leaders were saying we needed to teach the girls to bend down properly so that men would not have view of their behinds. –because our men and YM find that to be sexual. Also how they shouldn’t sit “Indian style” even in pants because it could be inviting. Those and other comments were made. I was boiling.
I went home that day and fired off an email to our president, who wasn’t saying those ridiculous things, but I felt she needed to know my point and why. I couldn’t voice it in person or at that meeting because we had no privacy. We’re in a stake building and there was a lot of traffic that day. To make it easier, I copied my email to you. You are welcome to reference any points I have, should you want to, provided, I remain anonymous.
Quote:“That meeting, while discussing what to teach the YW for etiquette night, stuck a nerve that many would not understand. They don’t realize what words like that sound like to women like me.
When I was in HS, I was a quiet bookworm who dressed in oversized sweatshirts. I was very, very conscious of my body. This quiet girl in oversized sweatshirts, babysat for a family next door. That father came home from being out late one night and did something unspeakable to a 15 yr old girl. He went into another room, took off all of his clothes, came out and cornered me on the couch. I froze. I was terrified. His wife was watching from the next room and laughed the whole time. It was all so confusing to my innocent self. I was 15. I’d never seen a naked man, much less been pounced on by one. I wasn’t close to my parents and never told them (until 10+ yrs later when he was arrested for child molestation) I was too ashamed to talk about it as a teen and I wondered if it was somehow my fault.
My leaders had taught me that I was largely responsible for keeping men’s thoughts clean. So, I mistakenly thought I must have somehow encouraged him to do that. Then at BYU (still wearing oversized baggy sweatshirts, still ashamed of my body), my roommates and I were at a boys’ off campus house watching a movie. I fell asleep and the others went to another part of the house and left me alone in the living room. One of the male roommates came home (someone I didn’t know well). He found me asleep with no one around. He assaulted me. This time at age 18, I was not as lucky as I was at 15 when all the dad did was follow me around naked until I found the strength to run. That BYU occurrence still creates a panicked response from me when I think of it. 22 yrs later. Again, I never told anyone. I’d fallen asleep; I felt shame and blame. I am ever so thankful he did not steal my virginity. He most certainly did steal my innocence though. I was left in emotional and physical tatters. Even to this day, I fight the voice that whispers to me that I was to blame because I fell asleep. Maybe “I looked too enticing on the floor and he couldn’t help himself”. And falling asleep where I shouldn’t have, meant I couldn’t “defend my virtue” as I was supposed to.
When women (members or not, but more often it’s members) talk about how it’s our (females) responsibility to not bend over, not show shoulders, not show knees etc, because YM/men just “can’t help themselves” from having impure thoughts, it makes a knot in my stomach. My throat tightens. My stomach hurts. My voice quakes. I fight back tears. I was shy. I was ashamed of my female figure and always trying to hide it. Yet, two horrible acts were committed against me and against my will.
I will always dig my heels in when it feels like people are intentionally or unintentionally over-sexualizing our YW. I want them to be taught to dress and act like ladies. To be respectful of their bodies and treat them like the temples and Godly gifts they are. But I want discussions of how our innocent actions are turning men on left out of it. We can’t be responsible for perverse men’s/YM’s thoughts and actions. We can’t inadvertently teach our YW that they are responsible for that.
Did I ever bend over to pick something up and did my creepy neighbor see me? I have no idea. But I cannot easily hear someone say something like that because whether it’s intended or not, it tells me that I could be partially responsible for things that have happened to me. To someone who’s never been molested, assaulted, injured etc., those words and implications would have very different meaning. They probably wouldn’t hear the message that I hear. To me though….
It’s excruciatingly painful. I *know* it is never intended to sound like that. But part of me is still just a teenage girl who had her innocence stolen from her and I carry it with me every day of my life. So sometimes my hackles get raised from sweet and well-meaning people, and sometimes the frightened and angry young girl in me lashes out. It’s a damaging message we should never send. Ever.”
I think I will shudder all day long after reading this. I also wish her story could find it’s way to the top – she is not the only one – this entire conversation has gotten way out of hand. Too many Men and Women are getting hurt. We have lost balance beyond reason. I could just shout – but no one would hear me and that is the worst crime of all. Ray please thank her for letting us hear her story.
I posted this here for two reasons: 1) So everyone who reads what we post here can read it.
2) So everyone who reads what we post here can share it.
We have a lot of people who read but never comment, and some of them are in positions in the Church to be able to share my friend’s story and make a change at the local level, at least. PLEASE, if you read but don’t participate actively with comments, print her message and share it with people within your circle of influence.
Quote:From the BCC post: He loved girls, he said, and had always wanted to be with them regularly. But he didn’t obsess over girls or think of them as sexual objects designed for his own titillation, to constantly flee from until you hopefully found the safe haven of marriage at some point in the future. He didn’t think girls could directly and irrevocably cause inappropriate thoughts, but that such thoughts were just part of becoming an adult human being, and needed to be acknowledged and managed accordingly.
For me this is the key. In order to liberate women, we need to also liberate men. Growing up I always wondered what was the difference between a normal healthy developing teenage sex drive and perversion. I don’t think my Mormon upbringing helped on this front. I had every reason to think that my every hormonal thought was evil. Not that I was ever very good a suppressing these…I just thought that I was unworthy and deviant. Before my mission I walked around the temple grounds and then wrote into my journal that if I couldn’t stop my “addiction” to self stimulation then I would never find fulfillment even in marriage. I really believed that this one thing would keep me from God and that if others knew the truth they would not accept me.
I would have loved to be able to accept these feelings and thoughts and move on. I would have loved to understand them as normal and God given to help prepare me for a satisfying and fulfilling future life long marriage.
But instead we demonize the thoughts and then divy up blame. We blame the media, the girls, the boys and anything else we can get our hands on.
Perhaps we should start at the beginning. Is it a sin to think about sex?
Quote:Is it a sin to think about sex?
Yes and no, depending entirely on the context and content (and duration) of the thoughts.
It’s that complexity that we lose when we refuse to talk openly about sex in a balanced way. Extremes are dangerous in most things; they are especially dangerous when dealing with sex and all things like unto it.
For me, and important part in the post is right here. Quote:But I want discussions of how our innocent actions are turning men on left out of it. We can’t be responsible for perverse men’s/YM’s thoughts and actions. We can’t inadvertently teach our YW that they are responsible for that.
Good point.
I will speak about this whenever the opportunity presents itself, Ray. The story you shared is very touching and very striking. I also like the story in the link about the missionary who was used to seeing women in a state of less dress so he wasn’t “aroused” when he did. There is a good point there. When we lived in one room homes, we all knew what each other looked like.
DarkJedi wrote:I will speak about this whenever the opportunity presents itself, Ray. The story you shared is very touching and very striking.
I also like the story in the link about the missionary who was used to seeing women in a state of less dress so he wasn’t “aroused” when he did. There is a good point there. When we lived in one room homes, we all knew what each other looked like.
Very true. Closed door homes that make a point of making the body something to be hidden and something that’s forbidden are going to have kids grow up with a skewed view sexuality and that will translate into guilt feelings and shame without any positive upside.
<<< We recently had a YW Leader meeting to plan an activity on being a lady. Leaders were saying we needed to teach the girls to bend down properly so that men would not have view of their behinds. --because our men and YM find that to be sexual. Also how they shouldn't sit “Indian style” even in pants because it could be inviting. Those and other comments were made. I was boiling. >>> I think the advice that was given at that YW leader meeting is perfectly sound and reasonable, and I don’t think it implies that young men get a pass from their responsibility when it comes to modest conduct.
There was no reason for this sister to be boiling over the sensible counsel that was given. Apparently the bad experience that this sister had in her youth has distorted her view on the issue of modesty.
Teaching young women that bending and sitting improperly could be sexually stimulating to some young men does not mean that young men have no responsibility to control how they look at young women. Shall we say that young women can walk around in miniskirts and even bikinis because young men should not be looking at their chests and bottoms anyway? Of course not–that would be the opposite extreme of saying that it’s all up to young women when it comes to modesty and that therefore young men are free to leer at young women all they want.
We do not allow young men or men to go shirtless at church sporting events, even if they’re playing basketball or some other intense sport. Why? Because most women find the sight of a man’s bare chest to be sexually stimulating. This doesn’t mean that it’s all up to the men to practice modesty.
Young women certainly should be taught to bend and sit and dress modestly, and young men should be taught to righteously regulate how they look at young women. I am certain that everybody else at that YW leader meeting had this balanced approach in mind.
Mike, If you are talking about how a women should bend and sit in a dress and not expose their undergarments, we are on the same page. If you are saying a girl or woman should never sit “Indian style” with her legs crossed, then we see things very different. I do agree in teaching all youth how not to hurt their back bending over, but making girls feel that guys are staring at them every second can cause both the men to feel they can’t be trusted and women’s actions are the only thing keeping the male species from sexual mayhem. Just go google “Brotherson Good Girl Syndrome” or “Dr. Jennifer Fife” and read up on the HUGE issue that society and especially the church has on how it teaches sexuality. We absolutely need to teach our youth to be sexually abstinent before marriage, but the goal should not be to have them married as virgins. If they are mentally/sexually screwed up virgins before they are married – we are greatly increasing the odds of them having marriage issues. The goal should be for them to have a vibrant married sex life that bonds the two together. IMHO I have noticed a tendency in the church to over-emphasize personal responsibility. It seems that when a person grows disaffected, people say “I’m worried about you”, or to blame your disaffection on your wrong thought processes. I have seen the punishment of victims many times in the church. In Sunday School, my daughter once safeguarded a cell phone that a girl next to her left on her chair, as this cell-phone owner went up to the front of the class to write on the board. One of the other girls tried to take the cell phone, and hide it from the girl who owned it. My daughter grabbed it before that could happen, and gave it back to the person who owned it.
The girl who was trying to hide the phone (a trouble maker — we’ve got stories), later indicated her greatest desire was to get a gun and blow my daughter’s brains out so “they gushed all over the floor”. There were other instances of this kind of bullying, but the priesthood leader indicated my daughter was partly responsible for the bullying because she decided to get involved in protecting the cell phone.
A very, excuse me, stupid comment for a priesthood leader to make — to pin the wrongdoing on the well-intentioned actions of my daughter. That attitude is alive and well among those in the modesty camp. And it can lead to low self-esteem, self-loathing, and even prevent good people from standing up for others who are about to be disadvantaged.
Truly horrific experience SD. those types of situations at church can be made worse because we are supposed to be safe at church. My $.02 on modesty.
We should not dress in a way that is designed to titillate because I believe that this debases or devalues our body. Our body is an amazing and miraculous machine/masterpiece. We should not reduce it to something sexual to be leveraged for attention from others.
I believe that we should dress in such a way that shows respect for our bodies. This would mean to dress appropriate for the activity being performed.
Example 1) My 8 yr old is swims competatively on a community team. Boys and girls wear very form fitting swimsuits designed to reduce drag and improve performance. If someone is lusting – that is not the fault of the competitors.
Example 2) We also participate in an annual childrens pow-wow. Sometimes the pow-wow regalia for the men and boys does indeed expose their chest and legs. When my daughter asked about how this squared with modesty I told her that the dress was appropriate for the activity and that keeping their heritage and traditions alive was a very honerable and noble thing to do.
Yes, bodies have reproductive systems. But they have so many other amazing functions. I find it dispespectful to reduce the body to its sexual companents (either to flaunt them or obsess about hiding them).
Like button+1 Roy I believe in modesty – and so does my friend whom I quoted.What we don’t believe in is the way modesty often is taught in the Church – some basic things / rules, NOT the concept itself. Not letting girls sit cross-legged because boys might be tempted somehow is a GREAT example of a stupid rule that puts responsibility on the wrong person. Mansplaining to a woman why her view of modesty is messed up due to experiences thousands / millions of other women share to some degree . . . No thanks.
Mike – the males of this church should likewise be instructed on the proper way to bend down so that they don’t invite the females to view their backsides. I speak from personal experience that on many occasions, the view of a well-formed male rear end has led my thoughts in an unholy and impure direction. 😳 That goes double for sitting. I’ve seen men in repose on chairs with their legs nearly at a 180-degree angle (perhaps airing out his ‘little factory’ – I admit I still don’t fully understand the intricacies of the male genitalia. I’ve never felt the need to adjust or scratch in public, for example). If that doesn’t scream “Hey, look at my crotch!” then I don’t know what does.
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