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Yes. We need more statements from the leaders of the church, and fewer press releases. :clap: Thanks mom3! In reading this I realized I can express my primary question on the topic by changing one word in the last sentence. If the church will uphold this statement with my change – then I do have some concern:
Quote:Apostasy is repeatedly acting in clear, open, and deliberate public opposition to the Church or its faithful leaders, or persisting, after receiving counsel, in
voicingfalse doctrine. What I see in John D’s situation is his expression that he is not trying to influence anyone to believe a particular way, he is simply promoting open discussion of all the issues. He also clearly states his personal beliefs, which could be easily seen as at odds with what the church teaches.
Where does the line lay between expressing heretical ideas – and promoting your ideas as correct and worth following? I can hear some say the expression alone is the same thing as promotion, but that tends to shut down the freedom to ask sincere questions – one question being “this is how I see it, can you persuade me to a different view?”
I’m glad the leaders finally said something instead of the PR department. For some reason though, I still don’t feel like there is a clear answer on why women don’t have the priesthood. They say “Only men are ordained to serve in priesthood offices.” It just seems like a statement of fact, they don’t back it up with something about how God wants it to be this way, or anything like that. Defining apostasy is nice, except for how abstract it still is as Orson points out. Quote:I still don’t feel like there is a clear answer on why women don’t have the priesthood. They say “Only men are ordained to serve in priesthood offices.” It just seems like a statement of fact, they don’t back it up with something about how God wants it to be this way, or anything like that. Defining apostasy is nice, except for how abstract it still is as Orson points out.
Journeygirl – This is my speculative take on the piece. #1 I too am so glad to have something from them. Anything. Whether I agree or not (and I don’t disagree with this at all, but if they had written something I disagreed with) I now have tools to work with. The clarity that people can ask tough questions is fantastic. The wards and local leadership haven’t fully embraced this. It’s going to take time, but we can each print this off and carry it with us if challenges arise. I love that.
#2 – Why less specfics? My guess is – they are a divided or processing quorum. I have no desire to speculate how/who/what camp people are in but the Race issue took time because consensus did not exist. The OW group asked for more than ordination. There are a lot of branches and streams that need to be assessed before a single prayer for ordination happens. I sense from the wording – that which was included and that which was left ambigious – that major discussions, prayers, and considerations are on the table.
I take the statement has a hopeful sign for church healing, women’s LDS opportunities, and continuing revelation or inspiration.
I absolutely LOVE the fact that this statement does not equate ordination of men only as divine will or as doctrine – that, instead, it is merely a factual statement. It could have been worded very differently, and I am almost ecstatic about the way it is worded. I think the most controversial statement is:
Quote:The blessings of His priesthood are equally available to men and women.
I know there will be people who say that is untrue, since women cannot be ordained to offices or perform ordinances outside the temple, but I don’t think I am stretching anything to say that I believe the leadership makes what they see as a clear distinction between those two things as “responsibilities” (things a person has or is restrained by) and all of the other things they term as “blessings” (things a person receives). In other words, I think they don’t see performing baptism as a “blessing” but rather see being baptized as receiving a blessing. That might not make sense to people whose perspective includes seeing the ability to perform an ordinance as a “blessing” – but I really do believe they are sincere in seeing and phrasing it the way they did.
Quote:Apostasy is repeatedly acting in clear, open, and deliberate public opposition to the Church or its faithful leaders, or persisting, after receiving counsel, in teaching false doctrine.
This is a tough one. I don’t think Kate acted in deliberate public opposition to the Church or its faithful leaders nor did she teach false doctrine. She upheld church leaders by insisting that they were the only ones who could ask for a revelation on this matter. I don’t feel that church leaders have yet heard what she was actually asking for. The generation gap and the inability of the sexes to comprehend each other seem wider than ever.
1) It is good to hear from the FP. 2) In thinking about some feelings I’ve had about the PR arm of the church taking a more predominant role I was reminded that we were spoiled a bit with Hinckley. He was a very public figure, that’s who he was. I guess he was prophet long enough to build up an expectation of sorts.
The best thing about this statement for me? My beautiful wife read it (she’s actually the one who told me about it) and said something to the effect of, “After reading this I don’t think you’re an apostate…”. Hooray! :clap: I like the statement and agree with those that say it’s about time the leadership actually said something. I intend to use it in talks and lessons. I really do think it can bring the same kind of comfort to those who question as Pres. Uchtdorf’s October 2013 address. I wish it was one of those “to be read in sacrament meeting” things. Hawkgrrrl, I love you and we agree 99% of the time, but I’m sorry, I after to disagree a bit. I think Kate did publicly and deliberately act in opposition to the church’s faithful leaders if only by protesting at General Conference when they asked her not to (and asked quite nicely, actually). Seriously, the thing is on TV now – probably because of OW – they really didn’t need to “try to get in” again and it’s hard to construe that action as just wanting the prophet to pray about it.
That is an interesting take mom3 and Ray, that the lack of a clearer statement could be a sign of different views in the leadership or at least does leave open the possibility of changes in the future. I hope that is the case. Alltruth, I’m glad your wife doesn’t think you are an apostate!
The statement was fine, but predictable. In my mind, the core issue is one of women’s roles in the church and in Mormon culture. Giving the priesthood to women is just one facet of the much larger issue. This announcement completely skirts even that one facet, because it focuses on ‘blessings of the priesthood’, rather than holding authority and the ability to make decisions and have oversight without a man looking over a woman’s should.
The question I have is why don’t they do something stronger? “We as priesthood body have made ordaining women to the priesthood a matter of fasting and prayer, and the Lord has revealed to us that it is not His will at the present time.” It seems the church has bypassed its revelatory roots.
I wish that they had made the statement EITHER about the defnition of apostasy OR about the fact that women don’t hold the presthood. alltruth wrote:The best thing about this statement for me? My beautiful wife read it (she’s actually the one who told me about it) and said something to the effect of, “After reading this I don’t think you’re an apostate…”. Hooray!
:clap: My DH said something similar to me. I am glad that they defined “apostate” better for me and the rest of the membership! I just hope this statment is not bruched under the rug with the rest of the things that make some members uncomfortable.
Quote:Apostasy is repeatedly acting in clear, open, and deliberate public opposition to the Church or its faithful leaders, or persisting, after receiving counsel, in teaching false doctrine.
According to this defintion… was Jesus an apostate?
In essence – what is apostacy from one angle can be re-birth/restoration from another.
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