Mind Control

[Anonymous]

Quote:

Yes, again, we have serious issues with respect to honoring agency and general indoctrination practices – but they aren’t unique to us, nor are they extreme within religion.

I have to agree. Once you understand some of the principles at work when social control is exerted, you can see it everywhere. Parents “controlling” children, bosses “controlling” employees, teachers “controlling” students, Husbands “controlling” wives (and vice versa). I don’t think the LDS Church has a corner on that market (IMO).

Maybe the issue is that is this is the true Church, why do its members or, more importantly, its leaders have to resort to the same seemingly manipulative tactics that every other organization uses to accomplish its goals? Maybe we just expect something different.

[Anonymous]

Yep…great example of high expectations of our church borne of its claims about itself. Enough from myself. Back to our regularly scheduled program.

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[Anonymous]

Old-Timer wrote:

I think we are saying basically the same thing, in the end, but looking at it from different perspectives based on personal experience – and I think the stats you cited support the idea that there is little difference between “passionate believers” among the groups I mentioned…Each group (LDS, Catholic, Protestant), theologically, claims to be the one, true religion (equally strongly), and the intra-faith marriage rates of the passionate believers (NOT holiday-only-mass-attending Catholics, for example) illustrate that claim…Seriously, with so many cultural, heritage Catholics in this country who still self-identify as Catholic, a 65% intra-faith marriage rate is as high, comparatively, as 82% among those who self-identify as LDS – when dealing only with those who are passionate believers…I work at a serious Catholic university and used to work at a passionately evangelical Protestant university. Not one of our “one, true” claims is uniquely exclusive – and nothing we do or say is egregiously over-the-top when talking about “mind control”…Yes, again, we have serious issues with respect to honoring agency and general indoctrination practices – but they aren’t unique to us, nor are they extreme within religion.

It seems like the tendency to be married within the same religious group deserves to be called “extreme” by definition given that the LDS Church was higher in this regard than any other group except for Hindus that are not exactly a major religious player in the US the way the LDS Church is in some Western states and it sure looks like a significant difference compared to 59% of mainline Protestants especially when they are all lumped together in this poll so that marrying between different denominations would still be counted as the same group. Sure you could technically argue that 82% is not that high or unusual compared to 75% for Catholics and to be honest I was surprised that their rate was that high but it looks like many Catholics in the US come from a distinct ethnic background such as Latino, Italian, Irish, Polish, etc. so that maybe many of them tend to get married to others from a similar background, the same neighborhood, etc. and in many cases they just happen to be Catholic as well but in reality that could easily be a secondary factor or even coincidence in many cases compared to Mormonism where religion is certainly treated as a primary factor from the outset.

Another factor to consider is that adult Mormons are more likely to be married at all in the US (66% versus only 52% for Christians in general). What I’m getting at is that I think the Church basically depends on members being married to other practicing members and having them actually believe the one true church claims as well as strictly obey several very specific rules in a way that many other churches do not to the same extent at this point. Even if the Catholic Church manages to convince a certain number of its followers that it is the one and only true church and this ends up being the main reason why they marry another Catholic in some cases how much control does it really have over their everyday lives in most cases? It seems like it doesn’t typically make that much of a difference than if they were atheists compared to the LDS Church because they can still drink alcohol, coffee, tea, and/or smoke, wear what they want within reason, spend most of their time and money how they want, etc.

At best it looks like this would mostly mean they typically wouldn’t have to argue quite as much about the best way to raise their children than if there were significant religious differences to sort out. As far as I can tell, only the clergy and monks that actually take vows of celibacy, poverty, etc. have to sacrifice all that much if anything for the sake of their beliefs compared to the typical practicing Mormon. Meanwhile getting married in the temple is basically like going all-in with regard to the LDS Church because after that it will actually be easier for many Mormons to simply continue to go along with tithing, the WoW, garments, church attendance and callings, testimony, etc. than it would be to change their minds and say no to any of these things because then they would have to worry about what their spouse will think about it. Basically the Church currently needs its followers to go along with many different expectations including being married to another Mormon and think a certain very specific way because otherwise there’s a good chance they will “fall away” altogether.

[Anonymous]

I will bow out of this, since we are just going around and around at this point, but . . .

Quote:

As far as I can tell, only the clergy and monks that actually take vows of celibacy, poverty, etc. are really sacrificing all that much if anything compared to the typical practicing Mormon.

That is a gross mis-characterization of many Catholics I know, especially those who could be termed “passionately believing” – which has been the focus of many of my comments in this thread. They pay for private educations throughout their children’s school years (with large families, in many cases), attend mass daily (or, at least, multiple times each week), tithe (in many cases), spend time working for social causes (more than the average Mormon, probably), etc.

All other things aside, saying passionately believing Catholics aren’t sacrificing much in comparison to believing Mormons is not a statement I can leave unchallenged.

[Anonymous]

It might not be mind control, but talks like Anderson’s (above) and those like it certainly employ persuasive techniques, which I feel are intentional. Words like “you know it’s true” or “find scriptures you know to be true and testify of them” can be a very persuasive way to solidify a belief in something.

It has been demonstrated empirically that the telling or rehearsing of a narrative or event increases one’s belief in that event. We tend to strengthen our belief in the veracity of what we’re saying by the repeated saying of it. So, bearing testimony would indeed strengthen testimony–probably faster than anything else.

So, while this might not really be considered “mind control”, the techniques we often use and teach to gain and strengthen a belief seem to be more related to this phenomenon of repetition rather than an honest inquiry. I remember several GA talks discussing how the only or best way to acquire a testimony is to bear it (most recently Cook?).

[Anonymous]

Yep, and it happens in nearly all successful organizations of any kind.

I’ve been in education and in sales of one sort or another for a long time. Repetition of a core message is the foundation of many educational and sales techniques, as well.

[Anonymous]

There are times when I believe that faith is there to serve goals, rather than goals flowing from faith. So much of our happiness and achievement depends on what we have faith in…it’s almost as if faith is something you decide to have so you can achieve certain goals, rather than faith dictating what we decide to achieve.

A professor of mine had a cartoon on his door. It was an assistant receiving a piece of paper from his boss. His boss said “that’s the gist of what I want to say, now get me the statistics to back it up”.

In the faith realm, it’s like this:

“That’s what I want to achieve, now it’s up to me to exercise the faith to make it happen”.

Even evil leaders in history seem to have had tremendous faith in what they wanted to accomplish. To me, it blows out the idea that faith has to be in things that are true. A shade of faith’s definition is “a belief in something you hope to achieve”. Truth doesn’t matter. And only when you make the thing in which you are having faith reality, does it become “real” or, as religionists would say “true”.

[Anonymous]

Old-Timer wrote:

I will bow out of this, since we are just going around and around at this point, but . . .

Quote:

As far as I can tell, only the clergy and monks that actually take vows of celibacy, poverty, etc. are really sacrificing all that much if anything compared to the typical practicing Mormon.

That is a gross mis-characterization of many Catholics I know, especially those who could be termed “passionately believing” – which has been the focus of many of my comments in this thread. They pay for private educations throughout their children’s school years (with large families, in many cases), attend mass daily (or, at least, multiple times each week), tithe (in many cases), spend time working for social causes (more than the average Mormon, probably), etc…All other things aside, saying passionately believing Catholics aren’t sacrificing much in comparison to believing Mormons is not a statement I can leave unchallenged.

You’re right; this was an unfair generalization. I was thinking mostly in terms of the minimum explicitly defined requirements expected of Mormons to be considered worthy such as paying a full 10% of income as tithing, strictly obeying the WoW, wearing garments, full-time missions, callings, etc. which seem to add up to more of a signifcant difference in everyday life decisions than the explicit requirements of the average practicing Catholic that are mostly simple rituals like attending mass, Communion, confessions, etc. that don’t sound all that difficult to observe by comparison.

Even the example of some Catholics paying a significant amount of money for their children to go to Catholic schools doesn’t sound like something they would feel obligated to do as much as them simply thinking it would provide a better education and environment for their children than the alternatives not unlike some non-religious people sending their children to private schools. If some Catholics feel good about making signifcant sacrifices above and beyond what their church is specifically asking for then good for them but that doesn’t necessarily mean they are being pressured into it in a systematic way.

I wasn’t trying to disparage Catholics or say that they are generally not as faithful as Mormons the way some of my comments possibly made it sound; I don’t doubt that some Catholics feel very strongly about their beliefs and that the Catholic Church is a big part of their lives and identity in some cases just as much if not more than the LDS Church is for the typical Mormon. In fact, to be honest I think the way the Catholic Church is fairly tolerant of diverse followers and doesn’t alienate and exclude people over strict obedience tests like the WoW is actually a positive thing overall and in my opinion it would be an imporovement if the LDS Church stopped being quite so strict and unforgiving more like the Catholic Church and most mainline Protestant churches.

[Anonymous]

Cnsl1 wrote:

It might not be mind control, but talks like Anderson’s (above) and those like it certainly employ persuasive techniques, which I feel are intentional. Words like “you know it’s true” or “find scriptures you know to be true and testify of them” can be a very persuasive way to solidify a belief in something.

It has been demonstrated empirically that the telling or rehearsing of a narrative or event increases one’s belief in that event. We tend to strengthen our belief in the veracity of what we’re saying by the repeated saying of it. So, bearing testimony would indeed strengthen testimony–probably faster than anything else…So, while this might not really be considered “mind control”, the techniques we often use and teach to gain and strengthen a belief seem to be more related to this phenomenon of repetition rather than an honest inquiry. I remember several GA talks discussing how the only or best way to acquire a testimony is to bear it (most recently Cook?).

I think some people that specifically study “mind control” tactics would definitely classify the current practice of repeating LDS testimonies like a mantra as a form of mind control because they would describe it as a thought-stopping technique that helps prevent evaluating and questioning preferred beliefs based on the available evidence, most likely explanations, etc. However, I think this is only intentional as far as Church leaders thinking these expected beliefs already represent reality and that having members fall back on repeatedly telling themselves that they know all this is true is one way to prevent being deceived by the outside world and maintain faith in the Church supposedly for their own good. I doubt that most Church leaders are consciously aware that some of the same basic techniques the Church continues to rely on so much have worked just as well to promote and maintain completely different religious or political beliefs, to sell used cars and the like, etc. as they have for the LDS traditions (except for maybe a few things like the commitment pattern and white-washed history which I think they justify as helping to accomplish what they see as the best possible results under the circumstances).

[Anonymous]

I am very uncomfortable with the church using mind control techniques . Yes they are it is very obvious today and even more prevelant today than in past years. To follow someone or something blindly without question is mind control . The guilt,shame and other obvious techniques are deplorable and should be abandoned . The biggest problem I have with the church is “This is the only true church on the face of the earth” saying well ok but what about all the other billions of people that are not members ???? Are they damned to hell ??? It is my belief that this is not the only true church on the face of the earth !! Their are many good people who are not members and many good churches besides our own , the truth comes from being a follower of Jesus Christ who is the savior of the world end of story . the church has taken a stance of excommunicating questioning members , which is really anti Christian in my view perhaps they should be a little more inclusive of people with different views and admit to wrong doing in the past suchas denying the priesthood to blacks etc etc etc . To follow the prophet blindly is a recipe for disaster , just my take on it !!

[Anonymous]

jagskill, I appreciate your honest response, but one of our missions here is to avoid inaccurate descriptions of LDS doctrine, since accuracy in that area can help us stay LDS, in many cases, and tackle productively areas where there really are theological issues that ought to change.

Of all Christian religions, Mormon theology is one of the most “lenient” when it comes to who ends up in Hell. Seriously, the fate of the “wicked” in our theology is MUCH better than in nearly all other Christian theologies. To make that clear, consider how many Protestant denominations view the fate of Mormons (burning forever in a lake of fire and brimstone) compared to how Mormonism views the fate of those exact same Protestant believers (telestial glory, at least – Terrestrial glory for many – Celeatial glory for many).

Too many members don’t think through and understand that simple fact, but it is there in obvious terms.

Also, again, we agree that there are manipulative aspects of our culture – but nearly all religions and denominations share those aspects. Some groups even have nothing but “testimony meetings” for their services, and the frenzied emotionalism of some congregations and denominations makes much of what we experience look like child’s play. I know; I have attended many services in my life. We absolutely are not unique or even extreme in this regard.

[Anonymous]

[Admin Note: I just need to repeat my word of caution from the beginning of this thread.

This is a topic that can spiral into hyperbole and unproductive negativity in a hurry. It is an important topic, but it is one that must be approached carefully if it is to stay open.

That is NOT a criticism of any commenter, and I probably should apologize to jagskill for posting it immediately following my response to you. It has been on my mind for a number of comments.

[Anonymous]

All good points Ray !!!!! I appreciate your input .

[Anonymous]

Old-Timer wrote:

jagskill, I appreciate your honest response, but one of our missions here is to avoid inaccurate descriptions of LDS doctrine, since accuracy in that area can help us stay LDS, in many cases, and tackle productively areas where there really are theological issues that ought to change…Of all Christian religions, Mormon theology is one of the most “lenient” when it comes to who ends up in Hell. Seriously, the fate of the “wicked” in our theology is MUCH better than in nearly all other Christian theologies. To make that clear, consider how many Protestant denominations view the fate of Mormons (burning forever in a lake of fire and brimstone) compared to how Mormonism views the fate of those exact same Protestant believers (telestial glory, at least – Terrestrial glory for many – Celeatial glory for many)…Too many members don’t think through and understand that simple fact, but it is there in obvious terms…Also, again, we agree that there are manof oipulative aspects ur culture – but nearly all religions and denominations share those aspects. Some groups even have nothing but “testimony meetings” for their services, and the frenzied emotionalism of some congregations and denominations makes much of what we experience look like child’s play. I know; I have attended many services in my life. We absolutely are not unique or even extreme in this regard.

Even if the theology sounds more lenient than traditional Christianity in theory that’s not what Church leaders and lessons currently focus on very much if at all, instead we essentially hear things like Satan’s going to get you if you don’t believe and do exactly what we tell you and then you will be separated from your family forever and it means you failed the test that is the whole point of life to begin with. And you don’t even need to wait for the next life and then let God be the judge (if anyone will be) to be punished for lack of strict conformity because anyone that doesn’t fit the explicitly defined faithful and obedient Mormon profile is already considered unworthy in the Church.

I agree with jgaskill; the Church should abandon obvious mind control techniques. I’ll believe they don’t practice mind control as soon as they stop acting in ways that just sound abusive and unethical when you step back and look at it in an objective way, not when they say they don’t practice mind control (denial). If other churches, businesses, etc. do some of the same things then that doesn’t make it alright, at best it only means those other groups are doing something wrong and treating people unfairly in those specific cases too. I don’t really expect the Church to abandon the only true church claim (D&C 1:30) or other official doctrines that have a scriptural basis anytime soon but it would be nice if they would at least reduce some of the heavy reliance on this kind of manipulation in cases where they could easily do something else instead such as focus more on basic principles Jesus actually taught according to the Bible such as forgiveness, not judging, etc.

That’s what is really disturbing to me about this, not that they do one or two things that are questionable but that most other churches, businesses, politicians, etc. do occasionally as well, but rather that I can look at various mind control/cult checklists and see that sometimes over 70% or more of the points all apply to my experience almost as if they were trying to use this as a playbook even though I don’t think this was the intended goal and repeatedly doing all of this at the same time absolutely does not reflect very well on the LDS Church at this point as far as I’m concerned. However, one problem with expecting any major reforms anytime soon is that I think Church leaders don’t really understand what this mind control/cult criticism means and are basically in denial about the Church doing anything wrong or unfair as well as many Church members and leaders having already gotten used to some of this to the point that it seems normal and not unusual to them.

[Anonymous]

Good, it appears we all are in agreement that this is not a uniquely Mormon / LDS thing.

[Author]

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