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I have some food for thought. Moroni 7 talks about miracles and how/when they cease. It’s common that some think miracles have ceased in our day- or at the very least, are less common than they once were. What if that isn’t actually the case? What if miracles are just as common, if not more, than they were in biblical times, and they’re just more spread out and private now than in the past? What if we just think there were more miracles back in the day purely because we can remember them more readily than modern miracles? (i.e. the Availability Heuristic)
Most of our modern publicly recorded miracles come from pioneer journals- healed feet that normally would have been amputated, mass healing though Joseph Smith in a refugee camp, plus plenty of other things. Jesus performed tons of miracles, and while we don’t actually know how many of them actually happened or which ones were embellished or corrupted, I still think it stands to say that he performed way more than were actually recorded. I doubt that Jesus performed visible miracles on a daily basis; It’s just that the gospels focus on the most interesting ones.
But that’s the thing: the scriptures are the highlights. Spectacular miracles are going to be in the highlights. The majority of miracles are mundane, and most days are arguably miracle-free for most people. I suspect things have been that way for the majority of human history.
Possibly – but, if miracles are defined generally as “things people can’t fathom or explain logically”, then it makes sense that the unexplainable would decrease when knowledge and understanding increase. I know the pioneers would have considered many things to be miraculous that are commonplace and assumed today – and that is more and more true the further back in time we look. I still believe in the miraculous, since as I said in the last thread about miracles, I have experienced the unexplainable at least a couple of times in my half-century of life, but I also do not believe many of the stories of the miraculous from our scriptures – because I can offer a reasonable explanation for them, because I believe they were meant to be allegorical or mythological originally, or because I believe they were fabricated after-the-fact to bolster the new Christian movement and/or the Holy Roman Empire’s new official religion.
When we read accounts of people, we are reading the highlights. This results in condensing time against content. The common count of Jesus’ miracles (37) against the assumed time of Jesus’ ministry (3 years) means that he
averagedone per month and that there would have been multiple weeks between each miracle or cluster of miracles. On Own Now wrote:
When we read accounts of people, we are reading the highlights. This results in condensing time against content.The common count of Jesus’ miracles (37) against the assumed time of Jesus’ ministry (3 years) means that he
averagedone per month and that there would have been multiple weeks between each miracle or cluster of miracles.
I was just thinking if Jesus had the press that we have now. “Jesus has not done a miracle in over 3 weeks. Is he in hot water with his boss GOD?”
I was just thinking a few days ago about how often miracles and visions happened in Joseph Smith’s time and I was realizing that maybe part of the reason was they expected them and were looking for them. Joseph had a lot of visions and revelations, but other people had them too. It made me think how they used to believe a lot in magic, and visions, and just seemed very mystically (?) minded. It was a lot more common place to see signs and visions than it is now, and people loved to talk about them. Whereas nowadays, not as many people look for signs and premonitions, and most people don’t expect to see angels or see signs of any kind anymore. So even if someone today were to wake up at night and think they saw a heavenly being, they’d be more skeptical, depending on their beliefs, and would air on the side of it possibly being a dream, or coming up with a different explanation for what it was. I’ve noticed that people tend to see what they’re looking for, or what they believe, so it makes sense that in biblical times or in Joseph Smith’s time, that people would air more on the side of something being a miracle, than it just being a coincidence or a dream, etc. And I think it seeming less common, also has to do with the fact that people don’t talk about them as much. I think part of the reason people don’t talk about them as much is they know other people are more skeptically minded as well, so they know they’d better be sure it was a miracle if they don’t want to be seen as crazy. And when it is considered a miracle, sometimes it’s considered too sacred to share, which I think is also a more recent thing. There were some spiritual things people didn’t share in Joseph’s time, but most things were shared quite often. I think a lot of people are less inclined to see or expect miracles/visions/signs, and they are less inclined to share them as well these days. LookingHard wrote:
I was just thinking if Jesus had the press that we have now. “Jesus has not done a miracle in over 3 weeks. Is he in hot water with his boss GOD?”
😆 I might have to put this in my signature.Perhaps the reason why there are seemingly more miracles in the days of the pioneers is because more miracles were needed. When you keep getting kicked out and even the poorest of the poor have to cross half the country to get to Utah for their own safety, you kinda need miracles to keep going and/or maintain morale. The Willie & Martin handcart company comes to mind when I say this.
I have not seen much of anything spectacular in my own life, but I can at least get behind the miraculous nature of healings in the early church. When you consider that some of the conditions that would have normally been hopeless even with 21st century medicine (e.g. legs that should be amputated that were healed), it’s kinda hard to shrug that off. Once you start getting into things like Samson, however, is when it starts getting into folklore. I wouldn’t be surprised if Samson was a real person with covenant-related long hair, but I doubt there is much truth to it besides that.
A catalyst for my faith crisis was that I expected the intervention of God to protect my family. When we lost our infant daughter my mental structures were rocked to the core. I give that for context on where I am coming from. What is a miracle? Is something that is improbable but not impossible (like getting heads 10 times in a row on a coin toss) a miracle? Does God make miracles happen? Does God favor some of His children more than others? Are miracles an indicator of God’s favor? Is there anything that we can do to increase God’s favor and thus increase the chance of a miracle on our behalf? Can we “bind” God in a covenant to the point that we are entitled or expectant of blessings/miracles?
I hope you see the slippery slope here. If someone really needs a miracle and they do not get it they may conclude that: 1) That they failed to be worthy of the miracle or 2) That God simply does not favor them for some reason not related to their personal conduct.
For my own personal sanity, I had to conclude that God does not (or almost never) intervenes in earthly affairs. This saves me from going to dark places. Unfortunately, this also causes me to discount, explain, or possibly shelve as “unknown” the possibly miraculous experiences of others. I try to be aware of my leanings and be as fair and open as I can towards other people with experiences that contradict my worldview.
Always Thinking wrote:
I was just thinking a few days ago about how often miracles and visions happened in Joseph Smith’s time and I was realizing that maybe part of the reason was they expected them and were looking for them.
I once read some journal entries from JS. It was from the Nauvoo period and Emma was sick (Nauvoo had higher than average rates of sickness due in part to its location as recently drained swampland). Joseph took her out to the river and baptized her and she was healed. The journal entry for the next day indicated that Emma’s illness had taken a turn for the worse.
Reading that made me think that she had not really been healed. I thought that maybe she felt better temporarily at best or that maybe getting dunked in the river might have exacerbated her illness at worse.
Beefster wrote:
you kinda need miracles to keep going and/or maintain morale. The Willie & Martin handcart company comes to mind when I say this.
Interesting that you should bring them up. I understand that they were promised a safe journey if they would proceed in faith. Lots of things went wrong and people suffered and died horribly. I do love the story of the rescue. It is the miracle of people helping other people (my favorite kind).
:thumbup: Always Thinking wrote:
…maybe part of the reason was they expected them and were looking for them.
Beefster wrote:When you keep getting kicked out and even the poorest of the poor have to cross half the country to get to Utah for their own safety, you kinda need miracles to keep going and/or maintain morale.
When Mormons were kicked out of Jackson County in November, 1833, it was pretty rough. It rained heavily on the refugees the first night and bitter cold followed. Within a few days, while they were still trying to get through the hardship, a meteor shower took place. It was massive. In Boston, for example, the rate of falling meteors was estimated to be about half the rate of snowflakes in an average snow storm. For you and me, it’s just plain old science. The Leonid Meteor Shower returns to the earth every November as the Earth, in its annual orbit comes back around to near the Tempel-Tuttle Comet’s path. In 1833, the Earth passed directly through a path the comet had made on a previous pass, making it the biggest Leonid event on record. But to religious people of the time, it was a sign, either for good or bad. I’ve always appreciated the way that Eliza Partridge (daughter of Edward Partridge) described it, because she doesn’t say that it WAS from God, only that it was seen in that way:
Quote:[The day after the heavy rain] we crossed the river into Clay County. There my father laid up some house logs and stretched a tent on them so that we could stay here until he could go and find a house. The weather was very cold but we were in the woods and could have plenty of fire. It was here that I saw the stars fall. They came down almost as thick as snowflakes and could be seen until the daylight hid them from sight. Some of our enemies thought the day of judgment had come and were very much frightened but the Saints rejoiced and considered it as one of the signs of the latter days.
As I have pondered this I have realized that what others consider to be miracles probably don’t meet my own definition or standard for what a miracles is. I think I have set a very high standard but I don;t think that’s either right or wrong. Example 1: The closing prayer at church requests we all travel home in safety. Turns out we all do, just like the week before and the week before that, prayer or no prayer. Miracle? To some people probably yes, but not to me.
Example 2: A child in the ward suffers a serious injury or disease. Doctors don’t think she’ll live. But priesthood blessings, hundreds of prayers and a ward fast later, she fully recovers. Miracle? Maybe. But what about the other child in the bed next to her with similar injury/disease and atheist parents who did none of that and she also fully recovered? That could be a miracle, too. Or it could just fate or luck or the way things are.
I do believe miracles are possible and I do believe in the lesser “tender mercies” although I think they are overstated as well. To me miracles are something that happens that is truly awe inspiring, unexplainable in other ways, and perhaps even defy natural laws. Christ’s resurrection, if true, is a miracle.
DarkJedi wrote:
Example 2: A child in the ward suffers a serious injury or disease. Doctors don’t think she’ll live. But priesthood blessings, hundreds of prayers and a ward fast later, she fully recovers. Miracle? Maybe. But what about the other child in the bed next to her with similar injury/disease and atheist parents who did none of that and she also fully recovered? That could be a miracle, too. Or it could just fate or luck or the way things are.
And add to that where doctors don’t want to over-promise. Just like every one of us in life we get a rush if we slightly under-promise and over-deliver.Roy wrote:
What is a miracle? Is something that is improbable but not impossible (like getting heads 10 times in a row on a coin toss) a miracle?
DarkJedi wrote:
A child in the ward suffers a serious injury or disease. Doctors don’t think she’ll live. But priesthood blessings, hundreds of prayers and a ward fast later, she fully recovers. Miracle? Maybe.
Suppose the Doctors gave her a 10% chance of survival, The probability of me getting heads 10 times is 0.0976%. It is 100 times more likely for the girl to survive. Which is the bigger miracle?
However, looking at it from that perspective seems so cold. Perhaps miracles are more than simple improbability. Perhaps they are miracles because of the meaning and significance that we give to them. “Miracles” can reinforce our purpose, values, and identity.
Roy wrote:
Roy wrote:
What is a miracle? Is something that is improbable but not impossible (like getting heads 10 times in a row on a coin toss) a miracle?
DarkJedi wrote:
A child in the ward suffers a serious injury or disease. Doctors don’t think she’ll live. But priesthood blessings, hundreds of prayers and a ward fast later, she fully recovers. Miracle? Maybe.
Suppose the Doctors gave her a 10% chance of survival, The probability of me getting heads 10 times is 0.0976%. It is 100 times more likely for the girl to survive. Which is the bigger miracle?
However, looking at it from that perspective seems so cold. Perhaps miracles are more than simple improbability. Perhaps they are miracles because of the meaning and significance that we give to them. “Miracles” can reinforce our purpose, values, and identity.
My point, that perhaps I didn’t really make very well, was that one person’s miracle is another person’s coincidence. Clearly there are people who need to see or believe in the miracles. Perhaps that is what sustains their faith – or is their faith. I just don’t seem to need them.
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