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Holy Cow wrote:
AP & SD:
I hope my post didn’t sound like I believe people should ask for miracles over medication. I’m the last person who would sit and wait for a miracle.
I didn’t think you were saying the first sentence in your post above at all, and I agree that miracles are unreliable, and often unfold on their own timeline. Miracles are certainly not reliable, and I will take dependence on my own hard work over relying wholly on a miracle any day. I do believe God is more likely to help me as I help myself, than he is to sit by and make my life all better by the wave of his hand.
Even when problems are dire and chronic.
This isn’t to lessen the seriousness of Shawn’s situation, either, more of a general statement about miracles.
amateurparent wrote:
Science and religion clash constantly. Eventually, science wins. Every time . It is hard to argue with multiple studies and independent research. But before science wins, there is strife and angst and calls for miracles.This is an idealistic notion of science.
“It is hard to argue with multiple studies and independent research.” – No, it’s not hard to argue with it. That’s what science does. It’s constantly arguing with itself, that’s how it progresses. However, this idea (common though it is) belies what actually happens in laboratories. Results are “improved” on a regular basis and researchers are put under pressure from corporate/capitalist interests. There is also a kind of bullying orthodoxy in the scientific community which not only works against scientific progress, but would be quite at home in the worst forms of religion. You’d be surprised at the amount of personal insults which are traded between supposedly objective scientists.
“Science and religion clash constantly. Eventually, science wins.” – Again, an oversimplification. In one sense, science loses constantly. Witness the huge volume of obsolete theories, some of which had studies and research which supposedly supported them. Science loses all the time, and throws out the old ideas. It’s also a human construct, meaning that it comes with all the problems of human society. Also, the fashionable notion that religion and science always contradict each other is one put out there by aggressive militant atheists. It’s not quite true either. Western science is biased in a military-industrial direction by economic interests, meaning that some areas of research are underfunded, but others which are detrimental to society (such as more deadly weaponry) are overfunded.
Medication is improving, but as I say, there are numerous problems.
* By largely ignoring external factors in mental health, we take the onus off society and our rulers to improve our environment and our politico-economic system.
* The side effects of a lot of medication continue to be debilitating. Do depressed people want to become fatter? Impotent? Or to have a damaged liver or facial tics? Moreover does someone with depression really want MORE suicidal thoughts? That’s what happens with some anti-depressants. Which could be said to defeat the point of them. Do you think any of these side effects make a person happier?
* Societal prejudice about mental illness is still massive.
* Because drug companies are run by the greedy, the pills are frequently overpriced, putting them out of reach of some people.
Shawn wrote:Then my mission president call me and said, “Elder, you get on that medication.”
It seems that siding with the physician is generally a safe practice. As a church leader I dont think I woukd ever tell someone other than to follow doctors orders or get a second opinion, regardless of a priesthood blessing. Not knowing all the circumstances I understand the mission presidents directions.
My wife is on Prozac long term and while I dont love the idea we’ve spoken to multiple doctors about it and they agree it’s the best solution. My wife is a much healthier and happier person on the medication. I have Generalized Anxiety Disorder and currently can control it through exercise. People critize me that I’m addicted to exercise – maybe I am. Doctors tell me some day I’ll probably have to take an anti depressant. I’ve had to accept the fact that my body has deficiencies that I’ll have to treat with medication eventually.
Nobody has said otherwise, but I want to point out that dependency is different than addiction. Doctors recognize the difference but sometimes we dont.Sent from Samsung tablet
The difference between dependency and addiction is important. My son is dependent on insulin, not addicted to it. My mother is dependent on her schizophrenia medication, not addicted to it. My grandfather was addicted to Pepsi – truly addicted.
Shawn, Sorry that that has been your experience with medication. I was completely against antidepressants for a long time and finally decided to try it out a couple years ago. I have experienced both the positive and negative effects of medication. When I first started taking meds, I was put on Zoloft which made me unbelievably nauseated for the first few days. A couple weeks in I had an extremely embarrassing side effect. Finally I was put on something else for several months which didn’t seem to help with my depression. So, I was put on yet another medication. At that point, I hated going to the doctor/psychiatrist so much because it seemed like nothing was working. Finally, they put me on what I’m on now and which has helped immensely. My depression isn’t completely gone, but it’s helped a lot.
Best of luck to you – whether or not the solution is changing meds, seeing a counselor, or just hanging in there until you find what works for you. It took me 10 years to figure out what worked and finally be brave enough to try it.
Quote:Sambee wrote: “It is hard to argue with multiple studies and independent research.” – No, it’s not hard to argue with it. That’s what science does. It’s constantly arguing with itself, that’s how it progresses. However, this idea (common though it is) belies what actually happens in laboratories. Results are “improved” on a regular basis and researchers are put under pressure from corporate/capitalist interests. There is also a kind of bullying orthodoxy in the scientific community which not only works against scientific progress, but would be quite at home in the worst forms of religion. You’d be surprised at the amount of personal insults which are traded between supposedly objective scientists.
Yes to all the above. Sciencific research is famous for its competitiveness, back biting, and pedagogical tyrants.
Quote:
“Science and religion clash constantly. Eventually, science wins.” – Again, an oversimplification. In one sense, science loses constantly. Witness the huge volume of obsolete theories, some of which had studies and research which supposedly supported them. Science loses all the time, and throws out the old ideas. It’s also a human construct, meaning that it comes with all the problems of human society. Also, the fashionable notion that religion and science always contradict each other is one put out there by aggressive militant atheists. It’s not quite true either. Western science is biased in a military-industrial direction by economic interests, meaning that some areas of research are underfunded, but others which are detrimental to society (such as more deadly weaponry) are overfunded.
Yes. It is an over-simplification. A blow-by-blow account would wear out my audience.
I love old medical and nursing textbooks and home medical guides. The ones published before the creation of antibiotics are amazingly frightening in their suggestions for care. My favorites are the ones published before germ theory. Reading through such books, medical progress is easy to see. Only through having such a long time view can the huge changes in between religion and health care be seen. The Pulitzer-prize winning The Emporer of All Maladies isn’t a fast read, but it gives a blow-by-blow account of the history of cancer treatment. It showcases so many treatments that were wrong, yet continued due to egos and power. There is a long trail of horrific suffering and death that has preceded each of our current treatment regimens. And still, our current treatments are too often still of little use.
But, there has been progress.
Quote:Medication is improving, but as I say, there are numerous problems.
* By largely ignoring external factors in mental health, we take the onus off society and our rulers to improve our environment and our politico-economic system.
* The side effects of a lot of medication continue to be debilitating. Do depressed people want to become fatter? Impotent? Or to have a damaged liver or facial tics? Moreover does someone with depression really want MORE suicidal thoughts? That’s what happens with some anti-depressants. Which could be said to defeat the point of them. Do you think any of these side effects make a person happier?
* Societal prejudice about mental illness is still massive.
* Because drug companies are run by the greedy, the pills are frequently overpriced, putting them out of reach of some people.
Nothing gets marketed unless money can be made. Research that isn’t market driven takes 10-14 years to make its way from research to clinical practice. An intervention that has potential to make money is amazingly fast to be published, promoted, and pushed by an army of reps. In a perfect world, human suffering would be the reason for well-funded medical research. This is not that world.
I work at 7-8 different facilities located in different socio-economic areas. In the poorest areas, probably 25% of the patient population is on a antidepressant or anti-anxiety med. In an area of extreme wealth, I typically see 80-90% of patients on something for anxiety or depression. They should just add Prozac or Zoloft to the water system. SSRIs and SNRI are everywhere, but we talk about then as if using them is unusual.
My 15 yo daughter has a mild Aspergers. AND Tourette’s syndrome. Want to talk about public perception and bias? Say the word Tourette’s. Does she yell profanity.? No. Does she repeat everything you say.? No. She has a occasional shoulder shrug and an occasional yawn-like motion with her mouth. Tourette’s is a syndrome –it has three components. Tics. OCD. ADHD. She takes medication for OCD and ADHD.
When she hit puberty, her tics went wild and she had trouble sleeping. Everything for tics is off-label use. Especially in the pediatric world. We went thorough 2 years of hell and psychotropic meds while her doc tried to figure this new problem out. Name a psych drug. There is a pretty good chance that she tried it during that time. Seraquel, lamictal, clomipramine, all the SSRIs .. All the SNRI. Weird blood pressure meds. Things that cause rashes that can kill you. One by one .. Titrate on one for 3 weeks. Increase dosages. Titrate off over 3 weeks. Try another med. It was horrible, debilitating, and extremely expensive.
For Tourette’s and Aspergers, everyone is always trying to market a new non-medication intervention. There is a whole list of treatment options out there. We used to pursue such interventions until we found no difference other than a lighter wallet.
For our daughter’s diagnoses, meds have been her best successes. In the end, we found something that worked for the OCD and ADHD with tolerable side effects. The tics and sleeping issues eventually went away on their own. All that effort, misery, and money was for nothing. Treatment isn’t perfect, but she feels her life is better with meds than without.
And due to science’s trump over religion, no one is trying to burn her at the stake.
amateurparent wrote:Science and religion clash constantly. Eventually, science wins. Every time . It is hard to argue with multiple studies and independent research. But before science wins, there is strife and angst and calls for miracles.
I think God affects miracles through science that we haven’t discovered yet.
amateurparent wrote:The second part of this is why don’t the meds work better? So many variables come into the chemistry.
We understand only a very small part of the human brain and anti-depressant drugs are still in their infancy. I suppose they are improving all the time. In my view, Prozac and Effexor have replaced real miracles far too soon and it sucks.
amateurparent wrote:People with Tourette’s Syndrome used to be burned as being possessed by demons.
This is very, very sad. People have caused immeasurable suffering and it seems that God could have prevented it. How many children have been abused because “He that spareth his rod hateth his son” is written in the Bible? Why didn’t God inspire Moses to teach the people to wash their hands to avoid disease while all that stuff about dietary restrictions was being promulgated? I know I should be grateful for what we know now, but I have become a cynic.Shawn wrote:I know I should be grateful for what we know now, but I have become a cynic.
That is how we survive as humans. If we are burned once, we learn from that and are more careful. It’s natural.Allow yourself to be a cynic.
Shawn, I too am sorry for what you’re going through. The only thing I want to add is:
1. Get a good Doctor that you trust & is willing to work with you as an equal partner. If the meds aren’t working, he (or she) needs to know that & try something else.
2. Give the course of treatment suggested by your Physician a good effort.
3. Find out if there are support groups for what you’re going through. Talking with others that are going through the same issues can be a great help. You can’t be the only one going through this.
As I’ve stated in other posting, I’m an Alcoholic. I’ve gone through a treatment program & currently go to AA.
The fact that I have been able to stay sober & be happy, is a real miracle in my life. It didn’t come through church or prayer. (I don’t consider myself a very spiritual person.) It took time & effort (on my part) to get to this level of understanding. It was a complete surprise when it happened.
I hope you can find your miracle too.
I think cynics are good at risk management — one of the topics I teach. Cynicism has saved my business “hinus” a few times over the last few years. Be cynical, but don’t let it disturb your inner peace if you can help it. Shawn: I came across this article this morning and it made me think of you.
https://hpwritesblogs.wordpress.com/2015/06/18/www-thesemicolonproject-com/ For me, it was a really poignant read. It made me remember a time when I was in the depths of grief.
If he article is not helpful for you, please know that it was sent with good intent.
AP – I needed that. For so many reasons I choose not to explain. Thank you. amateurparent, I noticed your post yesterday and I checked it out. Thanks for thinking of me. Shawn: It was my pleasure.
Mom3:
I’m glad it brought you some goodness.
Amateur Parent, I notice you didn’t address this -> Quote:By largely ignoring external factors in mental health, we take the onus off society and our rulers to improve our environment and our politico-economic system.
I sincerely think that not only are social and environmental factors causing or triggering a lot of mental health problems, but that by medicating people, we are avoiding a number of issues that should be addressed.
Of course this makes $$$ for certain parties. Which leads us back to Square One… greed and corruption are two of the main contributors to a sick society. God forbid we address greed, we’ll get condemned as Commies for saying it’s not a good thing.
Don’t think that all the West’s “common” mental illnesses are universal across all societies and cultures. Different ones have different ones. Anorexia is virtually unknown in some parts of the world, for example.
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