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Hey, I’m just impressed at your dedication to text out something like that. I think I’d go nuts. I can usually figure out what you are trying to say, but the choir jesses = confusion…
man, that one just makes me laugh
On Own Now wrote:Hey, I’m just impressed at your dedication to text out something like that. I think I’d go nuts. I can usually figure out what you are trying to say, but the
choir jesses = confusion…
man, that one just makes me laugh
Ya, it makes me laugh at myself. Because I between house choirs or responsibilities, I can only give myself usually 10-15 minutes to articulate thoughts and experiences and write it down. Like the structure of a debate form, but not actually a debate.
Having said that, thank you. I try to work hard to better the quality of life and rights to all. I try to stay dedicated to it.
That said, thanks for your input. I see things as similar but only a 1 sided point of view. I was trying to write about the perspective of others who I encounter and there experience shared with me in church.
I think both are valid. I know when I help others to make big decisions in their life I take a ton of but not all responsibility if something doesn’t go as planned and results in hurt or harm. So I write from that point if view.
I like your thoughts, I will try to mingle them from both perspectives. Thank you.
Here was my comment on the post so you can see why I think this is an important post. Quote:Families are torn apart to varying degrees through the conversion process. When my parents converted, my mother’s parents blamed my father and my father’s parents blamed my mother. Neither set of my grandparents were terribly religious although they belonged to a church, but they saw my parents becoming very involved in a church and to some extent that level of commitment and participation itself was the reason for suspicion and distance in the relationship. My grandparents felt they were taking religion too seriously. I have a brother-in-law who joined the church in his 20s and his mother was bitter and the relationship was strained until her death, decades later.
Living in Singapore, missionary work was much more passive than in Spain where I served, perhaps because multi-culturalism is valued without trying to homogenize groups of people. The American way is the “melting pot” model, creating a new cultural identity and letting go of immigrant identities. That’s the opposite of how it was in Singapore where both racist assumptions about groups of people and respect for diversity seemingly flourished side by side without much conflict. The church definitely follows the American “melting pot” model which makes the conversion process even more painful outside the US where not only religious beliefs but even cultural practices (which are often more closely tied together) may be subsumed in the conversion process. It can be a total rejection of one’s family: religious, cultural, and social. For many, that cost is worth it.
But there are probably two things that would help: 1) making sure we help newly minted converts navigate their relationships with sensitivity, and 2) letting go of some of our cultural colonialism that further erode ties between converts and their unconverted families. These are the growing pains of a globalizing church, and why Catholicism varies more by country than Mormonism does.
I agree with Ray and others who point out that Jesus said he came not to bring peace but a sword. Yes, conversion requires being willing to walk away from your family. But as those who are sending our missionaries out, we need to be sensitive that it’s what we are doing. 18 and 19 year old kids raised in the Mormon bubble aren’t generally great at this. On the contrary, they are focused on hitting their numbers without regard to impacts to the converts or their families. The price of conversion isn’t going to change, but I think my 2 suggestions in the comments would be helpful.
I agree with both points, Hawk. As I said, I think there is a lot we can and should do to lesson the impact on families. Quote:In hind sight most agree if they were presented with all they had to change or give up in the first place they would have never joined.
I disagree with that. I think it’s true of many who go through a faith crisis and end up not believing some or all of the truth claims, but I also know just as many people who converted to the Church who absolutely wouldn’t change that decision – many of whom are stalwart members and many of whom have experienced some degree of difficulty in the Church and even experienced a faith crisis / transition to some degree. Many people feel they are better people because of that decision, whether or not they remain fully or partially active. Finally, people who have to leave their families often aren’t the ones choosing to leave their families; many times, it is the families who make the separation. I know lots of people in that situation – who have tried hard to remain a part of their family member’s lives, continually over time, only to be rebuffed over and over and over again. Often that softens over time, but often it doesn’t – and it isn’t the “fault” of the convert any more than difficulty over faith crises is the “fault” of the person experiencing the crisis.
Also, there are past decisions I might change if I had it to do all over again, but I probably would not change most of them – since I don’t want to risk a different “now” than what I have. I don’t want to lose the insight and understanding I gained by being different for all these decades; I don’t want to risk losing my wife and kids (whom I absolutely would not have if I had not been who I was in the past); I don’t want to lose my world-view that is uniquely Mormon, even though it is uniquely my own; etc.
Well, the author is from Northern Europe, so there’s that. I do think there are different cultures at play in the conversion process, and we don’t generally do a great job understanding how those cultures exist absent the gospel as we proselyte. But I also think with religion it’s caveat emptor. The convert bears responsibility for his or her decision, full stop. I just want us to not be jerks in the role we play, and I know firsthand that we sometimes are.
Quote:I do think there are different cultures at play in the conversion process, and we don’t generally do a great job understanding how those cultures exist absent the gospel as we proselyte. But I also think with religion it’s caveat emptor. The convert bears responsibility for his or her decision, full stop.
I just want us to not be jerks in the role we play, and I know firsthand that we sometimes are.
A-freaking-men.
The problem is very similar to marketing. If the person presenting it clearly defined what they are getting and does so without encouraging or trying to stimulate emotion or decisions in the moment then it is the consumers or coverts sole responsibility in their decision. If however emotional decisions and techniques are used to bypass critical thinking and not everything important is disclosed then the marketer or missionary etc. bear over half the responsibility… Full stop…no rationalization or minimizations. Basic rule of ethics. So it’s all up to the individual situation. Jensen the need for education and full disclosure in the lessons before baptism. Education in the possible ramifications of what making a decision can entail and if they still want to make the decisions in light of that knowledge.
This is what me and my peers consider basic of the basic rights to a person making a important buying decision and the basic responsibilities of the business to the buyer.
To often they get exited, are encouraged in that excitement and to make a decision on it.
Join, some time after words problems arise that violate the basic human rights principles, then they leave.
Examples include if there child says no to EFY and the ward tries several times to “work on him/her.
In their own words “No means no!” They expect them to respect that decision. Not embarrassing their personal life and space and try to condition them.
They expect not to hear radical things taught like tithing even if desolate.
For them that’s basic of the basic “no duh” everyone knows this is inappropriate for anyone to do type things.
Basically the biggest complaint is that their personal space is not being respected and that wasn’t disclosed to them that if they disagreed with something or didn’t follow the program people would think they have the right to get I to their personal space. That’s the basic of the basics that no one had that right to just about everyone I know. So they never expected it and it wasn’t taught. As a result they left. I bear part of the blame for not full disclosure to them before I knew better.
Learned the lesson the hard way.
The other thing I have that I have to deal with from this is from an entire community.
Their are entire blocks of orthodox religions here who sign petitions on the whole block to present to the missionaries that they are not wanted in that block because they are firmly orthodox and everyone signed the petition in that block.
They come to me and want to know the missionaries are disrespecting their wishes as well as talking with their children.
So I get the heat because apparently they say I am the only Mormon that appears to even listen to their complaints.
I see both sides. But am tired of both the arguments and the disrespect on both sides. Either way, I’ve been involuntary out into a tough diplomatic place because of this. So I’ve learned to embrace this position in the last 10 years.
No matter what the a person decision is, in a situation like this it hurts tremendously the churches image.
That the large community who has every parents signature in that neighborhood where it’s all concentrated together with only 1 move in the last 15 years in it. Why their wishes aren’t respected.
I get to explain they it’s not the missionaries choice. But that isn’t going to help the situation.
I can relate somewhat, I mean I grew up in a neighborhood that didn’t want sakes people at door without express consent after getting bothered by too many, they started to hang signs of no trespassing or sakes without consent in their front lawns. This is just another version of that.
Obviously, one problem is that some 18 and 19 year old kids get caught up in the numbers game (and some mission presidents, too, let’s be honest), and they forget the spiritual and instead turn it into a sales gig. We did skits at one mission conference, and two elders summed it up nicely in a “used car sales” skit that laid this practice bare. It went something like this: Quote:Elder: So if you take the challenge to be baptized, you get to live forever with your family and Jesus and God in the celestial kingdom.
Investigator: Well, what if I don’t give up smoking and drinking? I mean, habits are hard to break and all. What if I don’t pay tithing?
Elder: That’s OK. You can still be baptized. We’ve got another plan called the Terrestrial Kindom, and we can get you in at that level. That plan also comes with baptism. So what will it take to get you in a white jumpsuit today?
Investigator: Well, one more thing, I really like to sleep with my girlfriend. I’m not sure I want to give that up. Is that OK?
Elder: Hmm. Yes, you can still be baptized. We’ve got an entry level plan for that called the Telestial Kingdom; it doesn’t require as much up front commitment from you, but it still includes baptism.
Great thread. Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk
hawkgrrrl wrote:Obviously, one problem is that some 18 and 19 year old kids get caught up in the numbers game (and some mission presidents, too, let’s be honest), and they forget the spiritual and instead turn it into a sales gig. We did skits at one mission conference, and two elders summed it up nicely in a “used car sales” skit that laid this practice bare. It went something like this:
Quote:Elder: So if you take the challenge to be baptized, you get to live forever with your family and Jesus and God in the celestial kingdom.
Investigator: Well, what if I don’t give up smoking and drinking? I mean, habits are hard to break and all. What if I don’t pay tithing?
Elder: That’s OK. You can still be baptized. We’ve got another plan called the Terrestrial Kindom, and we can get you in at that level. That plan also comes with baptism. So what will it take to get you in a white jumpsuit today?
Investigator: Well, one more thing, I really like to sleep with my girlfriend. I’m not sure I want to give that up. Is that OK?
Elder: Hmm. Yes, you can still be baptized. We’ve got an entry level plan for that called the Telestial Kingdom; it doesn’t require as much up front commitment from you, but it still includes baptism.
I think that is the crux of the problem. I think back to my mission and how it was all about the numbers. Push, push, push. I remember the president once saying he was embarrassed to turn in the n umbers to Salt Lake on baptisms because we had failed so miserably to hit our numbers. There was never any regard for the quality of the baptism. I can think of a couple of people that got baptized that I feel so bad about now. I hope things worked out for them, but looking back I am sure I just caused them more problems.
The problem is if the church really enforced correct guidelines on who could be taught, baptisms would drop by 80%. Missionaries make a living off the young and naive and people in distress. Get rid of those converts and you got little left for the missionaries to do.
and my mission was not like that at all When Mission Presidents are overzealous, missions can reflect Cadence’s experience; when they aren’t, they are more like mine. As with almost everything, “The Church” operates at each extreme and everywhere between.
Old-Timer wrote:and my mission was not like that at all
When Mission Presidents are overzealous, missions can reflect Cadence’s experience; when they aren’t, they are more like mine. As with almost everything, “The Church” operates at each extreme and everywhere between.
I agree, Ray. My mission was focused on numbers more than I would have liked, but my mission president did not push and did not see himself a failure. The goal numbers were numbers that he set – not that were set by SLC. He did have a very good understanding of the idea that one can’t set a goal for someone else, one of the most valuable things I learned from him.
My family was temporarily torn apart when I joined the church and I served a mission. I’ve been on both sides, there’s probably a lot I could say on the subject. I may write something on that in the near future. Yeah, there are varying levels of importance given to numbers. I do find it interesting that we always give lip service to the lack of importance to the numbers. “It’s not about the numbers brethren” but the only reason that phrase gets uttered is because the focus of the meeting shifted toward the numbers. The numbers are important enough to dedicate a portion of each meeting to remind everyone but they aren’t important enough for… well, I’m not sure. The numbers do seem important at times.
Another thing about numbers that I’m sure varies from leader to leader, I’m just mentioning something harmful that I’ve seen over the years. We like to make some lofty goals don’t we? If there were 20 baptisms last year next year’s goal will be out of the park. 100 baptisms. Sometimes it really feels that goals are artificially inflated and I think that can set some up to feel inadequate no matter the outcome. It can feel good and motivational to actually meet a goal from time to time but sometimes goals are made for us that are impossibly out of reach.
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