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After reading some other threads on who gets revelation in the church it got me thinking again about if anyone gets revelation. It brings to mind a SS lesson from last year on modern day revelation. The usual things like blacks and the priesthood, correlation, temple building were all listed as modern day revelation. Do we really credit these things with revelation from on high. How come our expectations on revelation since the days of Joseph has become so diluted. We have gone from “Thus Sayeth the Lord” to a warm fuzzy. Personally I think there has not been a significant piece of revelation in 150 years in the church. There has been nothing that any competent leader could not come up with on their own. Not to say there is not inspiration on programs and policy perhaps, but nothing to get excited about. So considering we base so much of our theology on modern day revelation, does this weaken the churches position since there is no revelation to speak of. Cadence wrote:Personally I think there has not been a significant piece of revelation in 150 years in the church.
😯 I must remember to invite you to my universe for tea sometime.
I have wondered the same thing. Prophets in the Book of Mormon do mention getting guidance from the HG. But also, they frequently mention revelation given to them in dreams, in person by angels, or by hearing an actual voice. (Interestingly Nephi even differentiates between the voice of the Father and Christ.) They seem very particular about quoting actual words that God told them. Our church leaders don’t seem to do these things. They talk more about inspiration from the HG. I don’t think any of them have said anything close to “Thus saith the Lord,” for a long time. That said, I don’t believe revelation has ended. I just think our church leaders may not be true prophets. Which doesn’t mean they are in any way unfit, or weren’t called, to lead the church. There may not be any prophets around right now. Or they may be somewhere where we aren’t hearing them. Hard to say. I’m still trying to get to the bottom of it.
I think many of us misunderstand revelation badly. Do we have modern revelations in the LDS Church? There’s not a doubt in my mind – and everyone knows I don’t say that much. Do we have modern revelations outside the LDS Church? There’s not a doubt in my mind. Do we have modern-day prophets in the LDS Church? Absolutely, in my mind – at many levels. Are there modern-day prophets outside the LDS Church? Absolutely, in my mind.
I really do believe that we dont’ believe what we see, but rather that we see what we believe.
What Ray said. 
Well said Ray. I think as much or more revelation today, much MUCH less drama. Isn’t better? I think so.
I know what you mean though (I think). When many of us talk about Church “revelation,” we are thinking of amazing new things like in the early days. The problem is, the foundation is there now, with a lot of stuff removed that didn’t stand the test of time (was not permanently “true”). That’s good too, but the dramatic part of the big “restoration” is done now. It’s probably for the best. We barely survived that is it was.
Cadence wrote:We have gone from “Thus Sayeth the Lord” to a warm fuzzy. Personally I think there has not been a significant piece of revelation in 150 years in the church. There has been nothing that any competent leader could not come up with on their own.
I have noticed that Gordon B. Hinkley basically answered “I don’t know” to a lot of basic questions in interviews and acted almost as if he wanted to pretend some of the real history and traditional doctrines of the church do not exist. Lately it seems like Monson and other top Church leaders mostly tell cute little inspirational stories and refer back to specially selected existing scriptures rather than trying to present anything original or ground-breaking.
Maybe it’s just a case where they have learned their lesson after seeing Joseph Fielding Smith claim that men would never travel to the moon and Bruce R. McConkie make all kinds of claims about dinosaurs, the supposed racial inferiority of blacks, “no death before the Fall”, etc. in Mormon Doctrine. Given the choice, I’d much rather see them remain silent when they’re not sure about something rather than just act like they know everything and have all the answers.
We live in a much more rational age. It’s not a “magical” worldview out there. It’s much easier to make major pronouncements in a world where that’s how things are done. Personally, I prefer a more rational type of revelation. I consider words like inspiration, discernment, and insight to all be roughly equivalent to “revelation” in their common usage. Revelation specifically means uncovering something that is hidden. That happens every time we learn something new. I am less interested in revelation on the church level, which is all good and well I suppose, than in my own ability to learn new things. Call me selfish! allquieton wrote:That said, I don’t believe revelation has ended. I just think our church leaders may not be true prophets. Which doesn’t mean they are in any way unfit, or weren’t called, to lead the church. There may not be any prophets around right now. Or they may be somewhere where we aren’t hearing them. Hard to say. I’m still trying to get to the bottom of it.
This made me think maybe the issue is not so much that there is not revelation but who gets it. Perhaps being a prophet is strictly a calling from God yet we have made it more an assignment. God calls who he will not who we say he should.
DevilsAdvocate, two things: 1) President Hinckley actually rarely said, “”I don’t know,” in a way that meant he was saying he didn’t know. The exact phrase from the interview you are referencing is, “I don’t know that . . .” That expression means “I wouldn’t say it like that” in the way he used it – exactly as my father and many others I heard growing up in that area used to say all the time when they were trying to say “No” politely. I have heard that criticism over and over and over again, and it has gained a degree of credibility and hipness – but it just isn’t what he actually meant in the interview.
2) Please don’t use the phrase “Monson and Co.” in this forum. It is a deraogatory phrase used a lot on anti-Mormon sites (and some fundamentalist sites), and we don’t allow that type of phrase about anyone – regardless of religion or denomination or orientation or anything else. Pejoratives simply aren’t welcome here.
I think that the Missionary program and language training missions are one example of continuing revelation. I remember Spencer W. Kimball admonishing us to learn Mandarin Chinese way back when China was a Communist country, the cold war was on and no missionaries where allowed in mainland China. Same thing with Russia. The Church began to prepare translations of the B of M and other missionary materials in Russian and Chinese, under the direction of the Prophet. We really thought this was ridiculous in my era because there was no way we could ever have imagined missionaries in the Soviet Union. Nobody went behind the Iron Curtain and the Russians would kill any Americans who tried to get into their country with a B of M. Times change.
MWallace57 wrote:I think that the Missionary program and language training missions are one example of continuing revelation. I remember Spencer W. Kimball admonishing us to learn Mandarin Chinese way back when China was a Communist country, the cold war was on and no missionaries where allowed in mainland China. Same thing with Russia.
If you are going to count that as revelation that is fine but then you need to accept that many churches are receiving revelation. Many evangelical people I know are trying everything they can to get into countries currently off limits to them. This may include learning the language. Not so sure good policy or preparedness constitutes revelation from on high or at least something as definitive as “thus sayeth the Lord”. It wold be much like saying it may be extra cold this winter, it would be best if I prepared by buying a warmer coat.
Cadence wrote:If you are going to count that as revelation that is fine but then you need to accept that many churches are receiving revelation.
So far, so good. I think it’s generally accepted here that the LDS Church doesn’t have a corner on truth, authority, or revelation. The work of God is much, oh, much, much bigger than the LDS Church.
Cadence wrote:Not so sure good policy or preparedness constitutes revelation from on high or at least something as definitive as “thus sayeth the Lord”. It wold be much like saying it may be extra cold this winter, it would be best if I prepared by buying a warmer coat.
The other way to look at it is the way you did in the quote above–that it
isrevelation. The way I talk to myself about it is this: “Why be a debunker? It’s so much more peaceful to be a believer.” I am a believer. I just don’t believe God hates his children.
Tom Haws wrote:Cadence wrote:
Cadence wrote:Not so sure good policy or preparedness constitutes revelation from on high or at least something as definitive as “thus sayeth the Lord”. It wold be much like saying it may be extra cold this winter, it would be best if I prepared by buying a warmer coat.
The other way to look at it is the way you did in the quote above–that it
isrevelation. The way I talk to myself about it is this: “Why be a debunker? It’s so much more peaceful to be a believer.” I am a believer. I just don’t believe God hates his children.
Does believing something make it true?
Absolutely and universally? Of course not. Individually and uniquely? Sure. Honest question for you Cadence:
Quote:What is the point of your last question?
Is it to gain the perspectives of the people here – or to argue a point – or to downplay someone else’s comment – or something else?
I ask this not to censure you in any way, but to try to understand – and to try to help you focus your own mind on how to bring reconciliation, understanding and peace. That is our mission, so I try to take that approach in asking this type of question.
Another way to ask it would be:
Quote:So what?
Why is it important for us as individuals to avoid believing something just because it might not be absolute, universal Truth?
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