Modern Day Revelation? Not so Sure

[Anonymous]

I know that deconstructionism is far from your heart, Heber13, you student of Joseph Campbell, you.

I believe I am a child of God like I believe I am real.

You are not saying, I believe, that spiritual = less. I just want to clarify that for any lurkers or readers.

spiritual = more

When I see God and it is a spiritual vision, that is more than if it were a physical visit. It is different, and it is more.

[Anonymous]

Tom Haws wrote:

spiritual = more

Great clarification!

[Anonymous]

allquieton wrote:

Ray,

I guess I could have been more clear. I mean that being satisfied with a prophet receiving nothing more than promptings is unsettling for me. That is where the bar has been lowered I think.

Yes this is the issue for me. I have always seen a large difference between inspiration and revelation. All individuals can receive inspiration. But when we say the prophet receives revelation for the whole church it just as to be more than a warm feeling. It is not rational to assume God is directing the whole thing and yet say he is not giving any instructions other than a cryptic message once in awhile. On the other hand I am fine with leader saying they are doing the best they can and believe they are inspired from time to time, but when they ask us to confirm them as prophets, seers, and revelators then my expectations of them goes way up. this is the issue at its core. If you claim to be a seer then you muse see, if you claim to receive revelation then you must reveal, and it must be more substantial than a good business decision or organizational change. If they can not do this then I shall accept them as leaders doing thier best and support them as I would any person in a position of responsibility, but I reserve the right to disagree and not be labeled an apostate, or someone trying to bring down the church.

In reality the title President is much more accurate than Prophet.

[Anonymous]

Cadence wrote:

But when we say the prophet receives revelation for the whole church it just as to be more than a warm feeling. On the other hand I am fine with leader saying they are doing the best they can and believe they are inspired from time to time, but when they ask us to confirm them as prophets, seers, and revelators then my expectations of them goes way up. this is the issue at its core. If you claim to be a seer then you muse see, if you claim to receive revelation then you must reveal, and it must be more substantial than a good business decision or organizational change.

Yes. There is a lot of truth in that. In other words, you want to claim the promises. Are the promises true or are they not true?

Cadence wrote:

It is not rational to assume God is directing the whole thing and yet say he is not giving any instructions other than a cryptic message once in awhile.

Hmm. I stumble on the word “cryptic”. What would I say if the Highest gave all the time a message that was cryptic, not because She is tricky, but because I am deaf and blind?

[Anonymous]

Tom Haws wrote:

[quote=”Cadence”

Cadence wrote:

It is not rational to assume God is directing the whole thing and yet say he is not giving any instructions other than a cryptic message once in awhile.

Hmm. I stumble on the word “cryptic”. What would I say if the Highest gave all the time a message that was cryptic, not because She is tricky, but because I am deaf and blind?

Cryptic as in hard to understand the actual meaning. But that is an interesting thought, but not so sure that makes me feel any more confident in the leaders receiving revelation if they are deaf.

[Anonymous]

As I have said previously, I have had a few personal experiences with amazing revelation. I share them very rarely, especially publicly, and I’m not going to do so now. If I can have them, I have no problem believing others have had them, as well. All I will say is that it’s a huge assumption that others don’t receive revelation simply because they don’t share them publically.

Remember, I’ve never said revelation is only inspiration. I’ve said revelation encompasses inspiration. It goes much further and deeper than that, but I don’t want to exclude inspiration from revelation.

Let me end on this simple note:

I have no doubt that our leaders (and others throughout the world) receive revelation for their lives and spheres of influence and responsibility – and that this revelation is more than just inspiration. I just don’t think God generally speaks face-to-face with man.

[Anonymous]

Gail wrote:

I have some reservations with your statement “Harmony IS truth.” I believe Harmony in your heart with your spirit and the spirit of god is truth. That does not always coincide with harmony with all others. In fact when others are not living with harmony in their hearts, then likely your actions of living with harmony within your own heart will emphasize their own disharmony. Typically when this happens people tend to blame their own disharmony on those that are living with harmony in their heart. What I tend to have problems with is when this blame comes my way I am motivated to act in ways that cause disharmony in my heart and I blame others for my disharmony and it becomes a vicious cycle.

Now I think I likely explained my thoughts as clearly as mud.

Actually, very well put, Gail.

I think the key is the insertion of the “other”. While we obviously don’t live in a vacuum, ultimately, our spirituality is uniquely personal. When we let others influence our own spirituality, our own “harmony”, we’re always playing that game. I think that it’s key to break that vicious cycle by not being influenced by the “other”. Easier said than done. 😳

[Anonymous]

Cadence wrote:

not so sure that makes me feel any more confident in the leaders receiving revelation if they are deaf.

What if it’s me who’s deaf?

Tom

[Anonymous]

Old-Timer wrote:

4) Finally and foundationally, there are almost NO claims of seeing God, the Father, face-to-face in our canonized scriptures, and there are almost NO claims of seeing Jesus, the Christ, face-to-face either – at least that are recorded in such a way as to completely rule out visions rather than visitations.

Yeah–When I read up on it, I always try to tease out the difference between visions and visitations. But I don’t get too far. There are lots of clues, but nothing much that’s concrete. Still it’s an interesting question.

Here’s a pretty frustrating quote from Lehi: “Behold, I have dreamed a dream; or in other words, I have seen a vision.”

Often the scriptures say specifically that something was seen in a vision. So it seems reasonable to me to assume that if a vision/dream isn’t mentioned, we are dealing with something actually seen with the eyes. Of course such a simple rule doesn’t cover every possibility, but I think it’s a good guide.

It does seem true that seeing God the Father is a rare occurrence. But, as I read it, seeing Christ is not so uncommon. 2 Nephi 11:2-3 says Isaiah, Nephi and Jacob “verily saw” Christ, and that they are witnesses. Why not take them at their word? Besides this, it’s easy to forget, but there are hundreds of witnesses of the resurrected Christ mentioned in the scriptures.

Though I do find all of this interesting, at the same time I think it’s inconsequential. My expectation for a prophet, based on what I read in the Scriptures, is that they at least occasionally speak for God. Which means that they expressly say, “Thus sayeth the Lord,” or its equivalent. Also their story should ring true, and also I should feel the Spirit. That’s the bare minimum for me.

[Anonymous]

AllQuietOn, I am searching for words here. I am not a debunker. I don’t want to be a debunker. This is very hard. I will say this:

Joseph Smith saw God. Have you?

Hmm. I thought of another possibility. I ask myself this:

What do the Buddhists say? The Quakers? Ramakrishna? Ghandi? The Dalai Lama? Emerson? Thoreau?

Here’s Thoreau:

Quote:

in dealing with truth we are immortal, and need fear no change nor accident. The oldest Egyptian or Hindoo philosopher raised a corner of the veil from the statue of the divinity; and still the trembling robe remains raised, and I gaze upon as fresh a glory as he did, since it was I in him that was then so bold, and it is he in me that now reviews the vision. No dust has settled on that robe; no time has elapsed since that divinity was revealed.

[Anonymous]

I have to admit I do find it hard to think of anything Gordon B. Hinckley said as being revelatory. In his interview with Larry King, I was disappointed that he seemed to give such vague answers on issues I felt the church was more solid on. I have also read some old quotes from church authorities on jazz, which read more like ordinary parents complaining about their children’s taste in music, than actual divine inspiration.

That said, he did have a hand in the declaration about families, which someone once suggested to me, may make its way into the D&C at some point. There is a lot of anti-family propaganda out there just now, from one quarter and another.

[Anonymous]

Tom Haws wrote:

Cadence wrote:

not so sure that makes me feel any more confident in the leaders receiving revelation if they are deaf.

What if it’s me who’s deaf?

Tom

Tom, love your comments!

Psalms 24:

3 Who shall ascend into the hill of the Lord? or who shall stand in his holy place?

4 He that hath clean hands, and a pure heart; who hath not lifted up his soul unto vanity, nor sworn deceitfully.

We are always surrounded by the power and majesty of God’s presence. We simply are too far from God to perceive it (ie, we are usually deaf). When we draw close, then we begin to experience sublime realities that cannot be understood by those that are further away. When we try to describe it, we are not understood.

How do we draw close? Clean hands = ‘good’ behavior; Pure heart = ‘holy’ intent and thought

…and I don’t think we should accept anyone else’s definition for ‘good’ or ‘holy’, though I admit I have accepted the Church’s definitions for many years, and it worked pretty well for me. Follow the promptings within yourself for that to become clear.

HiJolly

self-proclaimed Mystic Mormon

[Anonymous]

Afterthought—- I think there is another way to be ‘close’ to God. But we have no control over it.

Sometimes God whacks us upside the head, and we have no idea why. Been there, too.

HiJolly

[Anonymous]

Here’s my thoughts on the topic. I would guess that the pure truth distilled directly into your mind, to paraphrase Joseph Smith, may be the purest and most direct kind of revelation. That said, that kind of revelation doesn’t help much outside of the person who actually received it.

True enough, there are only a precious few times that the Father has revealed himself at all. If anything, I think that Ray may have over-counted as I think that the example of the brother of Jared was actually Jehovah, thus it would be an example of a manifestation of Christ and not the Father. That leaves us with Adam, Christs baptism (no not a face to face meeting, but he definitely revealed himself), to the Nephites before the resurrected Christ appeared, and to Joseph Smith in the sacred grove.

That said, I think that there is a natural scale in the scriptures – very few manifestations of the Father, more of the Son, and there are Angels all over the place in the scriptures. Manifestations of the Holy Ghost are similar – A few pentecostal type manifestations, a few more gifts of the spirit, and then come the inspirations and promptings.

Understandably, we aren’t privy to all the revelation our leaders receive. I would think however, that we might have heard about an angelic visitation or 2 in the modern age. The last time I can think of a church leader claiming an angelic visitation was when Wilford Woodruff was explaining why we needed to end the practice of plural marriage. The last time a revelation was shared from a dream was Joseph F. Smith’s revelation on the redeeming of the dead.

I admit my faith is running rather low, but is the faith of the whole church as low as mine?

Quote:

Behold I say unto you, Nay; for it is by faith that miracles are wrought; and it is by faith that angels appear and minister unto men; wherefore, if these things have ceased wo be unto the children of men, for it is because of unbelief, and all is vain.

-Moroni 7:37

[Anonymous]

I don’t like to look at it as more faith leads to more miracles, or the opposite that less faith means miracles are withheld from us…. But that faith helps us shape or recognize the miracles that are happening around us all the time.

That scripture says it is by faith that miracles are wrought.

Definition of wrought:

Quote:

Shaped to fit by or as if by altering the contours of a pliable mass (as by work or effort)

= molded, shaped

≈ formed

In the spirit of Joseph Campbell, I think it can be important for us to tap into the mystical and the myths around us, to preserve our spiritual side and enrich our lives, and let faith mold our experiences so miracles are recognized to inspire us. And not look at miracles as a barometer of spirituality by us or the church collectively. That feels like sign seeking to me.

[Author]

Posts