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Heber13 wrote:
I think it can be important for us to tap into the mystical and the myths around us, to preserve our spiritual side and enrich our lives, and let faith mold our experiences so miracles are recognized to inspire us. And not look at miracles as a barometer of spirituality by us or the church collectively. That feels like sign seeking to me.
Couldn’t that potentially lead to receiving or interpreting signs from things which were not intended as such?
Brown wrote:Couldn’t that potentially lead to receiving or interpreting signs from things which were not intended as such?
Yes. I believe that has happened quite a bit, including how the New Testament describes Christ’s teachings and miracles.I shared this once before a while ago, but will briefly mention my experience again at BYU with a humanitarian class.
Our professor wrote a poem. He was the author and knew the intentions of the message. As students we were asked to interpret the symbolism in the poem.
As a class we discussed it. Several students suggested symbolism that they found meaningful, and the professor said, “well, that wasn’t my intention when I wrote it, but I definitely see how that works for this poem and the message it is sending.”. As a class, he taught us that some things develop deeper meaning and richness with multiple minds interpreting it and using it for multiple applications, even if the original author did not intend such. I think this happens in art work frequently. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
I think it happens in religion too.
Heber13 wrote:I don’t like to look at it as more faith leads to more miracles, or the opposite that less faith means miracles are withheld from us…. But that faith helps us shape or recognize the miracles that are happening around us all the time.
That scripture says it is by faith that miracles are
wrought. Definition of wrought:
Quote:Shaped to fit by or as if by altering the contours of a pliable mass (as by work or effort)
= molded, shaped
≈ formed
In the spirit of Joseph Campbell, I think it can be important for us to tap into the mystical and the myths around us, to preserve our spiritual side and enrich our lives, and let faith mold our experiences so miracles are recognized to inspire us. And not look at miracles as a barometer of spirituality by us or the church collectively. That feels like sign seeking to me.
I look at it in more concrete terms I suppose. If something is wrought, it is shaped, made, created. Not ex nihilo of course, but I don’t think the word wrought has anything to do with perception. I think it is a simple equation, in the absence of faith there will be no, or perhaps very few, miracles.As far as sign seeking goes? That’s something that scripturally has always confused me. We talk about it as though it’s bad, yet the scriptures are full of signs to look for. What makes it worse for me is that I’m pretty science minded. The chapter of scripture that makes the most sense to me is Alma 32. It’s an experiment. Do this and this should happen. Test the hypothesis, etc. So what’s wrong with seeking concrete evidence?
theuno, so are you saying that with faith, you can bend and shape and change the world around you? For example, I have cancer cells, with faith those cancer cells can be altered and no longer cancerous, and therefore healed? That’s what I get from it. Of course the church teaches that it has to be God’s will too, which complicates the equation, and is part of why I’ve lately started thinking of myself as an agnostic mormon. Can’t really know. I have hope, but not much faith really. Heber13 wrote:theuno, so are you saying that with faith, you can bend and shape and change the world around you? For example, I have cancer cells, with faith those cancer cells can be altered and no longer cancerous, and therefore healed?
Or a natural immune response or medical treatment can remove the disease and we call it a miracle because we want to find miracles to build our faith.
Brown wrote:Heber13 wrote:theuno, so are you saying that with faith, you can bend and shape and change the world around you? For example, I have cancer cells, with faith those cancer cells can be altered and no longer cancerous, and therefore healed?
Or a natural immune response or medical treatment can remove the disease and we call it a miracle because we want to find miracles to build our faith.
Or the miracle is that doctors and scientists are enlightened to find new procedures that get closer and closer to cures, extend life, and improve quality of living for those suffering … and the miracle is people live longer with loved ones before passing away (not a total cure, but a miracle still the same).
The idea they can take someone’s heart out, replace it with another, and sew ’em back up is a miracle to me!
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