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Here’s a link that’s interesting: http://www.the-exponent.com/announcement-modesty-letters/ I personally haven’t seen negative effects from modesty teachings, although the article suggests what they might be….my biggest concern with this is that you don’t know who is going to bat for you in sending your letters to the Q12. I once saw a petition regarding the 1 year waiting period for getting married in the temple and thought it was a great idea — then found it was being furthered by a group of people I wasn’t sure I wanted to be associated with…so….you might want to look into the background, membership status, and other efforts of the person initiating the petition before jumping on board… Interesting. Very correct about needing to verify the group! As far as the issue, it is complex. Should the church have the right to say what women (yes I know occasionally this Includes men) wear. Does the church have the right to have standards? How is that enforced for the group? It use to be fine to wear normal shorts and tank tops if not endowed. Personally I get very very tired of having everything I wear including my underwear determined by a group of MEN! Yes I understand the need to not be immodest, but I refuse to be responsible for another persons thoughts. Where does the man’s accountability come into play? This lack of personal responsibility is why woman have to wear veils and burqas around the world, in order to not put “unclean” thoughts into a mans head. Seriously? Well why don’t we go back to the days of balming the victim for what she was wearing! Or hey you know he couldn’t help himself because he was drunk. It seems to me that the whole issue of modesty boils down to trying to control women in order to help men. Ok that is a good reason in part, fine, we can compromise and say no tanks, short skirts or tight shirts in church. Great mission accomplished, men can have a non sexualized environment to focus on the spirit. However, what is worn outside the church should not be so micromanaged. How do men function in the normal non lds world ?
Also for girls/ women it is just one more way to be judged by others. I coach and it is unfortunate to see a group of girls covered to their knees and double layered tshirts trying to move around the court. Then I don’t feel so bad for them when said group of girls pick on and mock the few other lds girls that did not “dress modestly”. Really just a sad frustrating situation for most females these days.
I think one reason people join churches is because they want a turnkey set of guidelines to live their lives. I know that was part of why I joined the church almost 3 decades ago. HOwever, with this power, I feel the churches often overstep their bounds, getting too prescriptive, etcetera, or attaching reasons, cultural norms, and judgments toward people who don’t follow them that can be highly destructive — to the point of cancelling the intrinsic benefits of the guidelines in the first place when you subtract the damage from the good that comes from the guidelines. If I can give the perspective of a man, however — I find it personally distracting when women dress in ways that draw a lot of attention to their more private body parts. I know that ultimately I’m responsible for my own thoughts, but sexual drives can be very powerful, and I find that scantily clad women make it very hard for me to keep my thoughts clean. When there are body parts that are highly exposed it means that in the space of a 15 minute conversation I’m constantly controlling myself to keep my eyes focused on the woman’s face, to keep my mind from wandering, etcetera — and this was particularly difficult during some of the tumultuous parts of my marriage when there were physical difficulties from my wife in the intimacy department. It was also difficult when I was a Young Single Adult and my theme song was a variant of an LDS hymn, which I will call “Master, Master, the Hormones are Raging”. During that period, I had offers for sex which my body craved to give into, and the physical sensations and drives were really powerful. It also made it very hard when I was around an attractive woman who dressed in ways that prompted fantasies about sex that otherwise would not be there….the physical effect can create painful tension in the groin area that is hard to get rid of and can also be embarrassing..
If I can draw an analogy — I just lost about 70 pounds recently. The hard part of the day was in the middle when I was doing something boring, and would pass through the kitchen where my family had just cooked brownies. They would eat a few, and then leave them out on the tray on the stove. I would walk by them, feel tempted to eat them, say “No” in my heart, and then walk away feeling a loss and decline in my inner peace for what I was missing, the need for self-denial, etcetera. After this happened five times as I walked through the kitchen, minding my own business, I finally got frustrated and packed them up and put them away and out of sight. Then the craving stopped and I had no thought about the brownies or blowing my diet as I walked through the kitchen throughout the rest of the afternoon.
These thoughts, temptations, and constant diverting of my mind and attention are only issues because of the stimulii provided by the open tray of brownies my family had left out. Although my natural man was still present, it was unprompted/unstimulated when the brownies were packed up and out of sight.
I see the effect of immodest women as similar to the brownies on the heart and peace of a man. And I think there’s a joint opportunity to try to help us control these drives. I don’t see the woman as responsible if a man gives into them and does something wrong (like rape, or unwanted, persistent advances) but I do recognize that women can help us weak, feeble, sometimes randy men make their lives easier by covering up within reason. As an act of service or kindness and charity to our feelings. Just like it’s gentlemanly for a rich person not to flaunt their wealth in front of a poor person.
Again,ultimately, the man is responsible for his thoughts and feelings, but I think it’s a highly balanced perspective to recognized that how a woman dresses has an impact on man’s inner peace. And that women can see dressing modestly as a form of charity toward men who are trying to be good — a form of service that I don’t necessarily expect, but certainly appreciate when they dress modestly.
Personally, I avoid petitions like this. They aren’t productive, and they often are couched in “fighting terms” that literally hurt the “cause” on which they are focused. I think we do a generally lousy job in many cases dealing properly with the whole concept of modesty, especially by making it all about sex and not about the overall concept of what modesty really means in its fullest context – but I still avoid petitions like this.
SD, thank you for your thoughts and perspective. I agree that women can and should help in this matter. I do have several questions though, who determines what is modest? What does not stimulate you may stimulate another man, does that mean I should be covered to your needs or his? Where is the line drawn? Do I have to be in part or completely responsible for another persons thoughts? I certainly aprreciate that in the US for the most part, a woman’s worth is not based soley on her sexual appeal. I do not want us to become like other places where women are valued only on how they make a man feel, and women have a very short shelf life. That being said, the new church dress standards are having the potential to be a little to extreme. It is to the point that non lds people pick out lds females based simply on the unattractiveness of their clothes. Forget about how odd one looks if not in the “mormon zones”. This inability to dress in even a somewhat normal way causes many women to feel unattractive which in turn leads to many having exaggerated feelings of self righteousness and judgment of others to compensate. How can it not when all the other “brownies” are being picked and you are stuck on the tofu, gluten free, unappealing plate.
SD you stated that unless the brownies were covered and put away completely, you were still distracted. Unless I am completely covered ie veil etc. wont men be distracted by their thoughts on some level? I know this is not what you personally want, desire or mean. However centuries of mistreatment of women have been based on controlling how a woman distracts a man. I acknowledge that women should be helpful and partners to men in this area, but when the church begins to make it a “commandment”or necessary for salvation I get frustrated. I have enough on my plate worrying about myself let alone another individuals thoughts. Thank you for your input though, it has made me appreciate how it could be very hard to be a man in today’s non lds world.
Dax, why don’t you post an introduction and let us know a little about your journey? Welcome.
Jumping into this conversation between SD and Dax – I often wonder if part of the problem is the difference between what we are taught is modest dress and what the norm of society views as modest dress. For example the smell of brownies will be that much more difficult for the dieting person that rarely encounters it. If you work in a bakery you will probably become a little more immune to the effects of aromas. Granted everyone is different, but my thought is a long time bakery worker will probably not respond in the same way to the smells as someone that rarely encounters it. Applying this to the topic at hand I see the potential for trouble when we make our standards starkly different than those of society. If our young men grow up hearing that tank tops should be seen as provocative – then they will see them that way. My impression is if you take a man out of a society where women were always covered including their faces, and you plant him on any American city street, you will see an extreme reaction. The problem could be seen as the American women are under-dressed, or it could be see as that man is not equipped to handle reality.
I hope that makes a little bit of sense. Yes it is a two way street, let’s look for cars from both directions.
Orson…very interesting point of view. Kind of a what comes first the chicken or the egg debate. I never looked at it that way. Wayfarer…I’ll post an intro here soon, sorry should have done that. Have a good weekend all!
Dax wrote:SD, thank you for your thoughts and perspective. I agree that women can and should help in this matter. I do have several questions though, who determines what is modest?
Ultimately I think the woman does — she determines what she feels is modest and how she should dress given the circumstances, culture, and her own feelings and needs. So, if she goes out in public and gets a lot of stares at her private parts, or find a lot of men are having trouble staying focused on her face when talking to her, she might take that as a clue to cover up a bit more. It will be different for different men, but if she finds she is getting a lot of stares, that might help guide her decision-making.
Quote:What does not stimulate you may stimulate another man, does that mean I should be covered to your needs or his? Where is the line drawn?
Again, the woman will have to do her best to draw that line where she feels it should be drawn after considering her own needs and the needs of the people around her.
Quote:Do I have to be in part or completely responsible for another persons thoughts?
As I said earlier, I view it not as a compulsory thing, but as an act of service toward other men that is voluntary if she wants to help them in that way.
I think I practice a form of spiritual “modesty” when at church. I no longer buy into many of the norms in our church, but I respect them out of respect for the community and its values. I try to change the objectionable norms where possible, but seem to know when I’m crossing the line into alienating people, and incurring social costs that outweigh the benefits of showing my beliefs with naked honesty. There are times I have pushed the limits and seen reactions that clue me into the fact that I’ve crossed a line, and learn from experience. There will always be people who disagree, but I have to decide if I value their opinions or not. Out comes my own path within the church.
Having recognized certain cultural norms are destructive, I’ve managed to abide by them while recognizing them for what they are — it’s in the recognizing and deciding for oneself what one thinks that the destructive impact is nullified.
I think the same reasoning can be applied to modesty in dress for both men and women.
Dax wrote:This inability to dress in even a somewhat normal way causes many women to feel unattractive which in turn leads to many having exaggerated feelings of self righteousness and judgment of others to compensate. How can it not when all the other “brownies” are being picked and you are stuck on the tofu, gluten free, unappealing plate.
I remember being a YM leader and picking up a group of boys from the pool after a swim. Several of the boys were staring at a woman in a bikini. I remember trying to draw a contrast and get the boys to recognize the value of a YW that respects herself by dressing modestly. The boys’ response? “Uh, huh” as they continued to stare open mouthed out the windows of my van.
😳 The problem is in subjectivity. We dress well with hair and make-up because we want to get noticed. Studies show that physical attractiveness does influence success. I have noticed myself that I am reluctant to tell an attractive female “no.” Should an attractive female salesperson dress unattractively to not exploit an unfair advantage or to prevent me from buying unnecessary products. How much “distraction” is good and reasonable and how much is too much? I believe the answers are subjective.
I was interested to see what everyone thought of this petition drive. I tend to be very modest and conservative in my own dress. I just tend that way. However, Silent Dawning, I know many busty women who are also totally modest by our church standards and they complain frequently of all the men’s eyes on their chest….even from men at church. What would you have them do? Should all women go in and have breast reductions? Even covering up, those darn big breasts just have a way of being there. I have also seen a trend in all my years in church now. When I joined as a young adult, women who had not been to the temple would wear tank tops, etc, shorter shorts (but not immodest ones). No one looked at them like they were sinners. Now, in our neck of the woods, our girls can’t just be in a one piece swimsuit at girls camp…many want them to have a T-shirt and shorts over that. It really has trended to ridiculous levels.As another example, The Friend magazine and that article not too long ago teaching the little girls to keep their shoulders covered, etc. One blog somewhere polled people and everyone was all over the place about when their daughters needed to start keeping the grown up, endowed standards. What is driving us to push our females over the edge with some of this? Quote:What is driving us to push our females over the edge with some of this?
Our Victorian, apostate heritage; the hardline conservative leadership of the mid-1900’s; the opposite extremes in our current culture and our communal tendency to push against it; our general bastardization of the concept of modesty.
afterall wrote:I was interested to see what everyone thought of this petition drive. I tend to be very modest and conservative in my own dress. I just tend that way. However, Silent Dawning, I know many busty women who are also totally modest by our church standards and they complain frequently of all the men’s eyes on their chest….even from men at church. What would you have them do? Should all women go in and have breast reductions? Even covering up, those darn big breasts just have a way of being there.
No, I don’t think they should have breast reductions…there are some things you just can’t change…but I think in some circles, particularly among men who aren’t experiencing sexual fufillment (like unmarried me in the church), the stares and thought-provoking images of the breasts would be more prevalent if the chesty women wore low cut blouses with a pendant nestled in the cleavage. The woman would have to decide how comfortable she is that given all the considerations I mentioned earlier in the coversation IMHO.
I do agree with you, Silent Dawning, that women who are showing cleavage to that point with a pendant, are drawing eyes there. And she would be wise to reconsider, if the stares bother her. I had one acquaintance who actually did this and it was disturbing to some of the men in the volunteer group we were both in. One of the other women told me later she was doing that to distract from being so overweight. That was a new thought to me. It did get to the point that one of the men actually shared with her, with his own wife present, that it was very distracting to him. This was a very conservative group of people. Unfortunately, the woman did not take it well and actually showed more cleavage after that. I also have a friend who recently had augmentative breast surgery and she has definitely changed the way she dresses and is deliberately showing them off. But this doesn’t give us an answer for those women who are totally covered and still have to endure the looks. I’m asking a serious question of all you men here. Would you be offended in that situation where a woman is totally covered, not showing cleavage, saying something to men who are staring at her chest? Would that be a deterrent and help men to stop doing that? Would that just get her on a dislike list?
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