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You said the bishop took your recommend. Why did you give it to him? He wasn’t going to arm wrestle you for it. Just say no. I know hat isn’t really the point and he can probably cancel it somehow but it would have been a momentary show of defience. NO I’m not giving you my recommend. As for being released – good deal. That was a job you were working for free. You have more free time to do something g else now. Something you want to do and some other poor person will have to work that slave labor job.
Oh man! Sorry. So then I am a little scared, because I am doing tithing that way. I was thinking about donating to the HUmanitarian stuff like Fast Offering or the perpetual education fund. I justified that I was trading up my Mormonism, and that I could truthfully answer that I was keeping the law of tithing by doing this, but I guess I might need to be a little worried about that. SO far I have been able to walk the middle ground and keep TR, but this sort of worries me. Good luck.
broofturker, pay it directly to SLC. You can do that online. I was under the impression a bishop asked if you are a full tithe payer and the only answer we had to give was yes or no. Why do we have to explain. The FP message says each person has to decide for themselves. Do we have to worry about this now? I hope not because I thinking about changing a few things in my tithing payments. The temple recommend question asks only if you pay a full tithe. Period. There should not be any follow-up if you answer, “Yes.” If there is follow-up, like, “I don’t think the numbers I’ve seen meet the requirement of a full tithe,” a simple, “Yes, I am a full tithe-payer,” is supposed to be enough – especially with the First Presidency statement.
That won’t stop some leaders from asking, but if they do so and won’t accept an honest answer, they are stepping outside the bounds of what they are supposed to do and, like we say a lot, acting as cafeteria / buffet / individual Mormons just like the rest of us.
Old-Timer wrote:The temple recommend question asks only if you pay a full tithe. Period. There should not be any follow-up if you answer, “Yes.”
If there is follow-up, like, “I don’t think the numbers I’ve seen meet the requirement of a full tithe,” a simple, “Yes, I am a full tithe-payer,” is supposed to be enough – especially with the First Presidency statement.
That won’t stop some leaders from asking, but if they do so and won’t accept an honest answer, they are stepping outside the bounds of what they are supposed to do and, like we say a lot, acting as cafeteria / buffet / individual Mormons just like the rest of us.
aka “ecclesiastical abuse”.I never think that hostility works. If the guy does probe, it may be helpful to say, “I have reviewed my income thoroughly and prayerfully, and yes, I’m a full tithe payer.”
I totally agree, which is why I still have a problem with this. Tithing is a personal declaration, and despite people in SS loving to say silly things like “Do you want Gross or Net blessings”, it is up to us to decide how much to pay. At tithing settlement, the Bishop shouldn’t be looking at the figure, multiplying it by 10 then asking if you earn X amount per year. The SP even said to me when I met him that it’s quite common for people to pay ‘full’ tithing for a few months in order to get a TR, then lapse after, but they let that be on their heads. Why can’t this be on my head? Bizarrely I prayed sincerely about changing my tithing so that I could donate to Amnesty, Shelter, Oxfam, etc. Heaven forbid I receive an answer that tells me something heterodox!
So what does the BP want you to do to get back your TR? Once you comply, is he going to monitor your donations every month to verify your compliance? I would be very frustrated if I was in your shoes. kristmace wrote:The Tithing issues is a fair one too, although I’ve only been splitting it between the church and other charities for about 8 weeks, and there has been no discussion about this to try and understand my perspective – just a challenge to change and ‘pay it in full’ (what ever that actually means!).
A “full tithe” is to be worked out between the member and the Lord, and then paid and declared at tithing settlement. Leaders share their experience and answer questions according to their understanding, but do not determine for other members what should be settled between the member and the Lord alone. I can imagine if there is a question a bishop may want to ask “do you pay a full tithe?” but when the member answers “yes” it is not his position to dig any deeper. (Unless he is determined to delve into the realm of unrighteous dominion.)
Correct me if I am wrong but I thought that some busy-body had been snooping kristmace’s online postings. Presumably the online posting included information on how kristmace pays tithing that the busy-body thought was unfair (like paying tithing to other charities). This busy-body then brought this information to the local church leaders. Like some other issues at church it is ok to hold unorthodox private opinions, but it is not ok to broadcast them. It is not ok to broadcast them at church, it is not ok to broadcast them privately to your bishop, it is not ok to put them on the internet (lest someone should read it, disagree, and bring it to your leaders). None of this is explicitely against the rules but it might cause suspicion against you. If you get labeled as a wolf in sheeps clothing then the ranks will close (to a greater or lesser extent depending on many factors) – with you on the outside.
That’s exactly the case Roy. I’m an open person, I don’t use a pseudonym online, and my crime is being open about my beliefs and practices with others in support forums such as this. If I had kept my ID hidden or kept my opinion to myself then there wouldn’t be a problem. I don’t feel I can do that though, as I’m not ashamed of my positions and I’m perfectly willing to enter dialogue with anyone on any topic. Such openness has been a one way street though and virtually no one is willing to discuss, just to take punitive action. Quote:Such openness has been a one way street though
That is one of the worst parts of this situation – almost as bad as what actually happened.
kristmace wrote:That’s exactly the case Roy. I’m an open person, I don’t use a pseudonym online, and my crime is being open about my beliefs and practices with others in support forums such as this. If I had kept my ID hidden or kept my opinion to myself then there wouldn’t be a problem. I don’t feel I can do that though, as I’m not ashamed of my positions and I’m perfectly willing to enter dialogue with anyone on any topic. Such openness has been a one way street though and virtually no one is willing to discuss, just to take punitive action.
I’m a bit confused, I hope you don’t mind me asking for clarification Kirstmace. If you are not ashamed of your positions and are willing to enter dialogue with anyone, how come you were not upfront with your Bishop in the first place regarding tithing? Just curious.
However, I do want to add that I support you fully in your situation right now Kristmace. You seem like a nice guy and I don’t like tattletales. Hope your hanging in there! I also think it is messed up that you were not made aware of the three individuals who were “concerned” for you.
I don’t mind you asking at all! My last TR interview was 4 months ago and at the time I was a full tithe payer (even by standard definitions, although I was paying Net!). It was since then that I made the decision to support some other charities. The amount that leaves my bank each month has remained the same, and the church is still the biggest recipient of my donations by quite some distance. I really felt like this was the right thing to do. I was carefully considering how to approach tithing settlement, but with that being many months away, I had plenty of time to mull things over. I know that tithing is a personal declaration and I was reaching the point where I felt I could declare myself a full tithe payer, even though by orthodox definition I wasn’t – I was comfortable with my own definition and interpretation. I know a lot of members would take issue with this, and a lot of people on here may disagree.
I feel like my opportunity to personally declare myself a full tithe payer, or alternatively to have a discussion with the Bishop about where my money is going has been taken away. The tattler has taken some comments I made about this out of context, and action has been taken. I’ve simply been challenged to ‘pay a full tithe again’. Whether that means I adjust my donations upwards again, or affirm my comfort with my current position is up to me I guess.
Quote:Whether that means I adjust my donations upwards again, or affirm my comfort with my current position is up to me I guess.
Exactly.
I also would suggest strongly paying it straight to SLC – and, if you are asked about it, telling your Bishop explicitly that you were hurt, deeply, by how everything happened. I would tell him that you respect his position and responsibilities, but that paying your tithing directly to SLC seems like the best way to eliminate the gossipers – and that is what I would call them.
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