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Fair enough mackay11. The church will change its temple/civil marriage policy, and I have to give Tom credit for making it happen.
I suspect this will lead to nothing legally…. but it will force the church to evolve and reform at a faster rate, IMO.
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The interesting thing to me about this is the instant dismissive reactions many have had to it as if it is just some kind of frivolous lawsuit by disgruntled “anti-Mormons” with a personal grudge against the LDS Church and/or some kind of direct attack on religious freedom in general. Maybe this case will not end up going very far but it sounds like many Europeans are already not nearly as inclined to give religion special treatment compared to what we are used to seeing in America and apparently Scientology already lost some similar cases in Europe. Also, claiming that they felt like they were induced to pay tithing based on the Church aggressively selling them this idea using deliberately misleading information is not even close to the same thing as trying to take away people’s right to believe what they want on a large scale so I think the religious freedom angle of condemning this case is overblown. I guess we will see what happens (if anything) but it is already bigger than what I expected when I first heard rumors about a planned “October surprise” because it has already been reported in in several mainstream media sources, not just DAMU websites.
cwald wrote:
The church will change its temple/civil marriage policy, and I have to give Tom credit for making it happen.
I see larger forces at work to change the one year waiting period. Gay marriage for one. Penalizing non-member families another.
I don’t see this leading to a change in the temple marriage policy, to be honest. For one, temple marriage isn’t in any way an issue in this case. Arcane points of doctrine supposedly leading a member to pay tithing is the issue. It’s not even about the lack of transparency surrounding tithing (which was honestly what I first thought when I saw the thread title). But the Church isn’t going to change marriage policies because of an unrelated lawsuit.
For another, it seems that the Church responds to challenges like this by clamping down with greater orthodoxy. I’ve always felt that the “You don’t question how The Church spends your tithing money” disclaimer on the new tithing slips is a response to the By Common Consent petition and other calls for greater transparency. They aren’t going to budge on something like this.
I also feel like the vast majority of the membership of the Church will never know that this lawsuit ever happened.
I put up a poll on this topic to see what average people think. http://www.wheatandtares.org/13650/mormonism-on-trial-in-the-uk-weekend-poll/ Joni wrote:I don’t see this leading to a change in the temple marriage policy, to be honest.
For one, temple marriage isn’t in any way an issue in this case. Arcane points of doctrine supposedly leading a member to pay tithing is the issue. It’s not even about the lack of transparency surrounding tithing (which was honestly what I first thought when I saw the thread title). But the Church isn’t going to change marriage policies because of an unrelated lawsuit.
For another, it seems that the Church responds to challenges like this by clamping down with greater orthodoxy. I’ve always felt that the “You don’t question how The Church spends your tithing money” disclaimer on the new tithing slips is a response to the By Common Consent petition and other calls for greater transparency. They aren’t going to budge on something like this.
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I think you don’t fully understand what this is all about.
Stay tuned. This is going to force the church to change the temple/civil marriage, IMO.
The church does, and has always changed because of social/ political pressure. This will be no exception.
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Orson wrote:cwald wrote:
The church will change its temple/civil marriage policy, and I have to give Tom credit for making it happen.
I see larger forces at work to change the one year waiting period. Gay marriage for one. Penalizing non-member families another.
Hasn’t made a dent so far.
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cwald wrote:I think you don’t fully understand what this is all about.
Stay tuned. This is going to force the church to change the temple/civil marriage, IMO.
The church does, and has always changed because of social/ political pressure. This will be no exception.
It’s possible that I don’t. The only things I’ve read relating to this case are the court documents and the newspaper articles that were linked here. Neither of them mention anything about marriage but there must be more information out there that I haven’t seen.
The news hit the morcor (is that even what it is called? Cache Valley). http://news.hjnews.com/news/article_caec323c-8ebb-11e3-b293-001a4bcf887a.html This will not be a good thing for us here. It will just make the orthodox leaders buckle down on the “apostates” and the internet is evil. Sadly the huge majority is orthodox and will blindly follow the leaders, in my opinion.
GodisLove wrote:The news hit the morcor (is that even what it is called? Cache Valley).
http://news.hjnews.com/news/article_caec323c-8ebb-11e3-b293-001a4bcf887a.html This will not be a good thing for us here. It will just make the orthodox leaders buckle down on the “apostates” and the internet is evil. Sadly the huge majority is orthodox and will blindly follow the leaders, in my opinion.
For sure. In the short term, this is going to cause a lot pain and casualties in its wake. I think Ray is correct about that.
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I am not bitter in any way about this. I simply don’t want to get so bitter about anything that I do something like this. I think it is legally frivolous (in the construction of the suit itself and the charges in it) and myopic (since the exact same thing could be charged about ALL religions by people who don’t believe them), even, as I said, I understand why he is doing it. I’m not dismissing people being bitter, and I never will. I’m not dismissing people venting or lashing out in anger, and I never will. I’m saying this is so extreme and ridiculous to me that I find it hard to explain how strongly I feel about it. To me, this is far over the line. Some things can be nuanced; some things cant. I get that fully. For me, this can’t be nuanced. It simply is too far over the line (and, I would say, almost juvenile in its formulation). It doesn’t help my view at all to know that he has been claiming he was going to drop a nuclear bomb on the Church (the “October Surprise” he’s been hyping) and raising funds from supporters by making such grandiose claims – and then to see this as his surprise.
I really do despise actions like this (meaning the totality of what he has done and said), and, as all of you know, I really do say that about very, very, very few things.
I see all the “things” like a Pacific Rim event. I grew up in the Pacific Rim area of California. I’ve lived half a century, during that time nature displayed an interesting cycle. Everything would be calm, predictable, reliable. Then some where in the Pacific Rim, as seismic something would happen. A volcano, earthquake, hurricane, etc. Usually the first event was to blame, but over time geologists realized that myriad of events happened to cause the first Big thing. Most of the myriad small things went unnoticed by every day humans. Tectonic plates moving didn’t phase us, wind currents shifting, etc. We missed it all until the Biggie, then we added all the biggies together and got all excited. Because A and B and C happened. In short, once the event hit us, we noticed. Until then – nothing. I see much the same here. I don’t think the October Surprise of February has anything to do with American Temple changes. I’ve posted this before. The discussion of US temple changes has been actively discussed in committee for 10 years. I have it on accurate authority. Ten years ago, Tom Phillips was climbing the ladder of success. Moreover, his claim is in Britain, they don’t have a temple issue. I see no correlation in speed or time.
The essays – same thing. 8 years ago I spoke on the phone with the head of church history department about Joseph’s Smiths polygamy. His final statement was, “I wish we would (openly discuss) these things. It would make things so much easier.” I don’t doubt that he has been laboring to move “things” forward for longer than 8 years.
More than 10 years ago, Terryl Givens spoke at BYU education week, and told the audience that they would be meeting a Joseph Smith unfamiliar to them. He and Richard Bushman have been running a summer church history study for ages at BYU. Whether it led to Joseph Smith paper project or pushed Leanord Arrington’s dream forward, I can’t say, but it too had nothing to do with the present Britain events.
If I could hazard a guess, I don’t think the church is worried about it. They have plenty of other projects. Will a talk or article seem to slant toward it, yes I wouldn’t be surprised. But the best we can do – if we want this be a blip on the radar – is let it be a blip on the radar. We aren’t the enemy, we have tons of support material, even before the essays to peaceably participate and be unthreatened. This case will likely move as slow as most cases, and by the time it hits it’s stride. We will be wrapped up in something else.
For me I’m letting the Pacific Rim rumble, roll, and going on about the day. None of this has anything to do with being kind to my fellow man, or forgiving those who hurt me. I’ve got plenty to work with.
Starting to see the orthodox TBM response on FB. Namely quoting Matthew 5:10-12. I’m sure the 7 points are either ignored or dismissed as anti lies. I get that, I’ve been there. I don’t agree with the point about questioning the guy’s motives in going after just the LDS church… why not the Catholics and all religions? I’m assuming that he was a member of the LDS church so why would he go after other churches? That and I see it as a variant of “you can’t do good because bad exists.” Meaning if something is wrong that can be addressed, don’t not address it because there are other, bigger problems elsewhere. Not commenting on whether his or the church’s actions were right or wrong, just saying.
Joni wrote:cwald wrote:I think you don’t fully understand what this is all about.
Stay tuned. This is going to force the church to change the temple/civil marriage, IMO.
The church does, and has always changed because of social/ political pressure. This will be no exception.
It’s possible that I don’t. The only things I’ve read relating to this case are the court documents and the newspaper articles that were linked here. Neither of them mention anything about marriage but there must be more information out there that I haven’t seen.
This case is not going to be focused about belief or faith. It’s about fraud….using lies/cover-ups/withholding information for financial gain.
Requiring tithing payments for family to attend marriage is smack dab in the middle of this.
It’s why I’m not convinced it is entirety frivolous….I think there is a case to be made that the LDS Church has done these things in the past. They have and continue to withhold information from its members….and I think this has everything to do with the essays. The church knows it is on trouble and has withheld info for decades and are desperately trying to fix the mistake… The hole they have dug for themselves.
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mom3 wrote:We aren’t the enemy, we have tons of support material, even before the essays to peaceably participate and be unthreatened.
The sad part about that is in some places, even with material and such, we are the enemy. I am the enemy here.mom3 wrote:None of this has anything to do with being kind to my fellow man, or forgiving those who hurt me. I’ve got plenty to work with.
Amen and I will keep reminding myself of this…every. single. week.
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