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I really hope something positive comes of this, Cwald is right there is going to be a lot of pain for people like me as a result of this. People who feel like me are so outnumbered and isolated in this area it is very easy for the obedient masses to dismiss us as broken, angry, or offended and this will just encourage that crap. At least in the short term this is not going to make my life easier. I wonder if this is how it went down with early church apostates like Thomas Marsh and William Law. Maybe we will end up with a great new “milk strippings” story to poke fun of when this is all said and done.
Cwald and cadence make a fair point. We’re making assumptions without knowing all the facts about Tom Phillips. Quote:
“There is one principle I wish to urge upon the Saints in a way that it may remain with them—that is, to understand men and women as they are, and not understand them as you are.”
Brigham Young
I want to be clear. I in no way wound have done something like this. It does not make me happy or please in the slightest. I’m simply saying that I understand TP’s frustration and I’m not convinced this is a frivolous accusation, when one reads into. When it all comes out, it’s not going to be about faith or belief…. It’s about fraud and the church tithing policies. IMO.
I also will no longer be able to defend MT and TP as just being objective…. They are clearly “anti mormon” and seeking to bring the church to its knees.
My only consolation to all this, is it is going to force the church to reform much quicker than it would have. For that, I thank ALL progressive mormons, even guys like TP who have been willing to take an arrow for the team.
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Quote:God is Love wrote – The sad part about that is in some places, even with material and such, we are the enemy. I am the enemy here.
Quote:Origami wrote – People who feel like me are so outnumbered and isolated in this area it is very easy for the obedient masses to dismiss us as broken, angry, or offended and this will just encourage that crap. At least in the short term this is not going to make my life easier.
In reading my post again, I can see where I came off flippant and unconcerned. My apologies for that. One of the things that drives me in my faith redevelopment is the chance this time around to build a faith that feels personal and true to me. I find that when I get agitated, and let myself be effected by outside stuff – I don’t live by the faith of my heart.
This event is impactful. It is getting air time and adding to the already ugly divide that exists. We may have to step back or sit more quietly while the wind blows this past us. But that doesn’t mean that it should frighten, anger, or up end us on our journey to reconnect with the LDS world. Maybe for a few weeks or months, if we attend church, it might help to make the 5 mins. of Sacrament taking, as our personal well filling – then give the rest of our time to seeing who is missing, and writing them a note of interest during class. We can drop it by on the way home, or mail it later. Or write a personal talk using the 4 synoptic gospels. Or as Hawkgrrl suggested observe people anthropologically, see if you learn about them, without them even knowing. Last of all there is Candy Crush, always a winner.
The purpose of this site is to STAY lds. Whether in your heart or your actions. We can do this. We aren’t the first group to go through this. Think of all the Sunstone and Dialogue people – they didn’t even have the internet. Some of them even lost their standing in the church – Euguene England, Leonard Arrington, but they kept their hope up. I want us to look to the sun. And not let the storm win. Pull in our sails, ride it out, and keep on course. That was the intent of my first post.
Touché Mom3. Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk
Thanks Cwald – Pardon me while I get fired up for a moment. I promise after this reply, I will go outside in the 18 degree weather, and cool off with the freshly falling snow. Gods Country. Give Jwald a hug.
nibbler wrote:Starting to see the orthodox TBM response on FB. Namely quoting Matthew 5:10-12. I’m sure the 7 points are either ignored or dismissed as anti lies. I get that, I’ve been there.
I don’t agree with the point about questioning the guy’s motives in going after just the LDS church… why not the Catholics and all religions? I’m assuming that he was a member of the LDS church so why would he go after other churches? That and I see it as a variant of “you can’t do good because bad exists.” Meaning if something is wrong that can be addressed, don’t not address it because there are other, bigger problems elsewhere. Not commenting on whether his or the church’s actions were right or wrong, just saying.
My recollection is that he and his wife have had their second anointings which means at that point he was as committed a believer as you can get. He published an email discussion with Elder Holland that was as bitter and angry as I’ve ever heard so I see this as the epitome of getting even. If this gets dismissed, there will be something else especially with his running MormonThink. The main thing is that there will be no room in his mind for any reasoned discussion, just payback.
This case opens up a can of worms. The Queen of England claims to be “defender of the faith”, due to her headship of the Church of England. Even appears on British coins as F.D.. Only problem being this was a one-off title given to Henry VIII for a pro-Vatican pamphlet – thus she is guilty of religious fraud herself. She also calls herself Elizabeth II in Scotland, Canada, Australia, NZ etc – none of these places had an Elizabeth I – that’s fraud too perhaps. I have never heard the 6000 year claims EVER taught in the church. We get Adam and Eve in the Temple but not even that way.
If Amanda Knox, aka “Foxy Knoxy”, can’t be extradited to Italy what luck Pres Monson. I DO object to TSM being picked on, as I don’t consider him an evil fraudster.
As Cwald says, it might be good if the church further goes down the perestroika/glasnost line, but there are many ugly aspects to this. A friend of mine got regular abuse at his work about temple garments thanks to articles about Romney – it genuinely hurt him. This may create abuse against members.
GBSmith wrote:My recollection is that he and his wife have had their second anointings which means at that point he was as committed a believer as you can get. He published an email discussion with Elder Holland that was as bitter and angry as I’ve ever heard so I see this as the epitome of getting even. If this gets dismissed, there will be something else especially with his running MormonThink. The main thing is that there will be no room in his mind for any reasoned discussion, just payback.
Ok. To me the name came with no baggage whatsoever. Just another John Q. Public as far as I know.
SamBee wrote:I have never heard the 6000 year claims EVER taught in the church. We get Adam and Eve in the Temple but not even that way.
Yeah, it’s not something that’s really taught in SS. I think they make the connection with scriptures in D&C 77
Q. What are we to understand by the book which John saw, which was sealed on the back with seven seals?
A. We are to understand that it contains the revealed will, mysteries, and the works of God; the hidden things of his economy concerning this earth during the seven thousand years of its continuance, or its temporal existence.
Q. What are we to understand by the seven seals with which it was sealed?
A. We are to understand that the first seal contains the things of the first thousand years, and the second also of the second thousand years, and so on until the seventh.
mom3 wrote:The purpose of this site is to STAY lds. Whether in your heart or your actions. We can do this. We aren’t the first group to go through this. Think of all the Sunstone and Dialogue people – they didn’t even have the internet. Some of them even lost their standing in the church – Euguene England, Leonard Arrington, but they kept their hope up. I want us to look to the sun. And not let the storm win. Pull in our sails, ride it out, and keep on course. That was the intent of my first post.
I didn’t take your comment as insensitive but this will be bad for our little corner of the world. I already get to hear comments like, “grateful for our prophet of the ward” and “people who are ‘offended’ just aren’t as close to God or Jesus Christ. Satan has his bands on him/her”. We are now officially on the radar here and out of every stupid thing that has gone on, we are “offended”. Never mind the 1000 times I showed back up after being reamed in a Ward Council or accused of questioning authority.
mom3 wrote:Or as Hawkgrrl suggested observe people anthropologically, see if you learn about them, without them even knowing. Last of all there is Candy Crush, always a winner.
This does help but it is tough when the ones you struggle with the most and I would consider the least open to human difference are in leadership in the ward and the stake.Candy Crush….I have seriously worn out my phone.
All that being said. I am okay with my place in God’s eyes and I just took my power back from those pharisees! I am the one driving my boat. I am envisioning the scene from Forrest Gump when Lt. Dan is on the shrimp boat yelling at God in the middle of the storm. Only I am in his place yelling at the storm(jerks at church). I feel better. Thank you Mom3.
Quote:I DO object to TSM being picked on, as I don’t consider him an evil fraudster.
Hear, hear. I think he’s a kindly man in his later years, grieving for the loss of his wife. This is probably added stress. I certainly don’t worship our leaders, but I don’t wish them ill either!
The thing is, that verse never says the Earth is only 6,000 years old – and I also have never heard it taught as church doctrine. Otoh, I’ve heard the millions or billions of years version many times. I just don’t see how the charges represent fraud, especially since believing them or not is totally irrelevant to whether tithing is paid or not. I think he doesn’t care much about the validity of the charges but rather simply wants to hurt the Church. Frankly, if I am right, he’s charging fraud while perpetuating it. That is why I despise it.
The more I think about it, that is what bothers me the most. I believe MormonThink is fraudulent to the core (misrepresenting intent blatantly in order to trick unsuspecting members and bias non-members), so him charging fraud . . . Irks me. I see a fraud alleging fraud by perpetuating fraud.
Someone else? I wouldn’t react as strongly.
Yes, I agree Hawkgrrl. The church made, and continues, to make mistakes. It
needs to open up, but attacks often works against that. I don’t hear
Pres Monson preaching hatred against other faiths/atheists, or bizarre
fundamentalist stuff about the City of Enoch floating into space, I hear
him talking about service to our fellow people – and widows! – which is
what we need to hear. The church needs to change… but what Mormons
see here, is a pleasant, gentle and unobjectionable old man getting
attacked not long after losing his wife.
I’m coming around on this… I don’t believe that the intention was ever to recover money paid in tithing or document discovery. I think his goal was to get everyone talking about those 7 points, make them common knowledge and seed any member or potential convert with those doubts. Guess it worked.
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