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OK, friends, I am at the end of my rope on this one, and I don’t know what to do. I can’t see my way around a persistent and perhaps even increasing deep conviction that the church is harmful to moral thinking. Right now what’s at the top of my mind is the church’s correlated apologetic fundamentalist presentation of morally repugnant stories. Today’s Sunday School lesson was about one of the greatest prophets ever, a man whose spirit every Latter-day Saint might want to have with them to lead them to the temple and bind them to their families. This man is Elijah. And today in Sunday School we heard how he mocked 400 local priests from another church (they were really wicked, the story went), then after Heaven sent fire to lick up a soaked sacrifice, he killed them all.
That’s righteous? That’s a Sunday School story? I am dumbfounded. I honestly don’t see any use of that story beyond strengthening unhealthy collective Ego tendencies and beliefs of “our” God as the “right” one, and “our” religion as the “true” one. And yet I don’t know how to speak up even after all these years as a heretic.
And that story just reminds me of Nephi’s killing Laban and Moroni’s bad behavior toward Pahoran and Zarahemnah.
All this stuff matters, I think. It all sets an example and a tone for what it means to be holy and righteous, just as does the stuff in the Gospels showing Jesus as a cranky firebrand (which is all fine, of course, except when we insist on saying he was perfect in behavior).
The bottom line is that I don’t know how to escape or re-work the fundamentalist view of scripture that leads to evil being called good over and over again. I don’t give a fig over theology. I see nuances of deep meaning in priesthood, temple, atonement, etc. I can rejoice and delight in these things. But when I see morally dangerous discussions and presentations, I am stopped dead. I see clearly the connection between these things and the way we relate to the world, to our little children in our homes, and to our enemies.
Is there anything I can do to continue participating without feeling continually I am betraying myself? What can I do?
Oh Tom. I ached over the same thing. I want to cry and scream at the same time. For me, it all became so wonderful when I realized–because of these stories—that the scriptures are not literal. A burden was lifted. HOWEVER, the pain continues when I take my children to church knowing they are taught a literal interpretation of the stories.
In my home I have talked about the Nephi/Laban story with my children and verbally told them that God would NEVER ask anyone to kill anyone else and that killing is WRONG all the time. I hope I can teach my children to have and use critical thinking.
I had to quit my Old Testament Institute class because it was getting too hard to hear the justifications from my friends and fellow members for racism, genocide and sexism. I did question things. I said I thought Noah practiced unrighteous dominion for cursing Canaan. I posed the idea that perhaps God didn’t smite the Isrealites with a fire but maybe they just attributed it to him in error. Hmmm, I got others on board with the ridiculousness of the black magic cursed potion that was given to women to see if they were adulterous or not. I also got others questioning a bit about the virgins being given as booty of war…..Yet, I could get no body to see that genocide was flat out wrong. “God’s ways are higher than our ways.” Not if he is a rampaging murderer!
It is damaging and I don’t know how to fight it. I question if there is a way. At this point it is a stumbling block to staying LDS.
So, no help from me. Just solidarity, brother.
Joseph tied the church to the history of the Bible from the get go, so now we are stuck with it. Also consider those stories were written and then translated so long ago and come from a different reality than we live in today. Killing and mayhem were much more regarded as a means to an end than many people would be willing to accept today. Throw in the fact that most of the stories are myth and legend makes it easy for me to dismiss them. I do agree however that it is ironic a church who preaches humility at every turn takes these stores so literal.I see no humility in any of these stories. No general authority would be able to act and behave like so many of the prophets from the Old Testament.
It’s the year we study the OT, and we (as a Church generally) do not really understand the OT. The OT is very violent and brutal. It is a collection of quasi-histories and stories about tribes and their gods, this one from the perspective of the Hebrews. If they won in battle, slaughtered their neighbors and got all their stuff, then they must have been righteous, and their god was the “true” god that made it all happen. If they lost? Well … the only “logical” explanation was they were not righteous enough, and had somehow displeased their war god. They’re just stories. And add to that some deep need to make the OT priesthood structure fit into our modern Church government format, and it is a recipe for cog dis.
It is what it is, and I have pretty much given up trying to get others to see that in group settings. I focus on good lessons that can be learned – and the lesson in my ward yesterday (the same one) actually was a very good discussion. That’s largely because it was taught by the teacher who isn’t into literalism, and she didn’t even mention the killing of the prophets of Baal. If the other teacher had been teaching that lesson, it might have been different – although he skipped right over the statement of Rehoboam’s counselors in 1 Kings 12:10 that his little finger would be thicker than Solomon’s “loins”. (Frankly, my favorite quote of the entire OT – especially since flat-out NOBODY mentions it in SS.)
Old-Timer wrote:It is what it is.
So staying LDS is morally harmful, case closed?
Quote:So staying LDS is morally harmful, case closed?
Stuff only hurts you if you let it. That this bothers you is just another evidence that the Spirit is working in you. What other’s say or do is up to them.
Have you ever watched a Clint Eastwood movie? or my favorite Tombstone? I know for those on the boards this may seem an appoligetic answer but sometimes evil men/women must be fought with the same violence. I’m not saying become a vigilante but consider the times and context of which the OT was written or atleast the reflection of those times. By all accounts historically and biblically they were violent times. Considering the fact that in our own modern history we have lost tens of thousands in a single batttle. The other thing to consider is the fact that sometimes you simply cannot speak rationally with a warlike people or culture. We like to think we can but sometimes we cannot. Adolph Hitler for example was one whom couldn’t be reasoned with even by his own generals. Stalin, Mao, any number of individuals couldn’t be reasoned with through speach. On a smaller scale in our own civilized countries look at some of the violence on the street over drugs and gangs. Some may say that it is due to socio-economics but the true fact is some people are just plain wicked and evil. At times these atittudes can become the status quo of a given nation.
In the instance of Laban consider having a police chief who is on both sides of the law like the character played by Gene Hackman in Unforgiven. Or imagine Tony Soprano has all your geneolgy and family photos. How would you get these things back from him in a peaceful way? Think of the reprecussions of taking them from him and leaving him alive?
How about Pharo? Even after the Isrealites were let go he still sought revenge? The OT gives us a glimpse of Humankind’s propensity to continue acting immorally or wickedly until the ultimate loss of free-agency which is death when we can no longer physically exercise the choice to commit wrong doings.
As I recall the war in heaven Satan said he would save all by making us bend to his will thus saving all by force. If we all were to simply follow the example of Christ, free agency would prevail. Unfortunately the wickedness in the hearts of men may prompt some to seek dominion of those who would not fight back.
To me it is yet another mystery of God that I believe he intends us to judge and ponder.
Quote:So staying LDS is morally harmful, case closed?
No, Tom. Lacking a pure Zion in which to live (which I also take figuratively, btw),
life and sociality are morally harmful, case closed. Absolute literalism can be morally harmful – but it doesn’t have to be. I know plenty of people who take the OT literally, but I wouldn’t categorize the vast majority as morally harmed in any way that is worse than life itself does to the vast majority of humanity. I don’t think staying LDS is morally harmful, in and of itself. Judged against an ideal – well, sure it is. However, I also think that staying LDS can be morally enlarging and edifying and exalting. It can be whatever each person makes it – and, unfortunately, there just is no way for the majority of people (within or without the LDS Church) to let go of a literal reading of scripture.
It’s not something they can do, so it’s not “right” to demand it of them.If you are interested, I wrote something last week about viewing right and wrong in a different light. I was going to link to it, but instead I think I will copy it to this forum and open a new thread.
Tom Haws wrote:So staying LDS is morally harmful, case closed?
Judaism, Christianity and Islam all use the Old Testament stories.
Using the OT literally would be a problem though for anyone that used it as a literal instruction manual for how to run their life and their community today. It actually may have been a functional mythology 3,000 years ago in the extermination-style, tribal warfare environment of the middle east. Even then … was it morally harmful? It was not as enlightening from my perspective today, but that’s evolution and progress, I hope.
Brian Johnston wrote:Tom Haws wrote:So staying LDS is morally harmful, case closed?
Judaism, Christianity and Islam all use the Old Testament stories.
Using the OT literally would be a problem though for anyone that used it as a literal instruction manual for how to run their life and their community today. It actually may have been a functional mythology 3,000 years ago in the extermination-style, tribal warfare environment of the middle east. Even then … was it morally harmful? It was not as enlightening from my perspective today, but that’s evolution and progress, I hope.
That’s the funny thing about history is that one in the present can look upon it from the present and make all kinds of conclusions. I wonder how the future generations will look upon us. The current war while there are many different views on it, has relatively light casualties as well many of the more recent and ancient wars. During medieval times whole families would follow a soldier to war much like a nomadic temporary tribe. And while text may make it sound like a massive battle, a few hundred might be all who participate.
The other thing to take note of is that much of the OT is encapsulated, and a small passage could encompass many decades. The Bible itself was made of many, many texts altogether. A small tribe’s record of a war may only have just a few skirmishes and a few casualties but could be devastating to the tribe due to it’s size.
A good example would be the Cattle Wars of the 1800’s a big part of history and the lives of those who fought it, possibly devastating but still a relatively light war. Even the Hatfields and McCoy’s, two feuding families but big part of history.
I think the big lesson is that violence begets violence. The teachings of Jesus were teachings of peace which I think shows the need for the Atonement of Christ and the NT vs. the OT a very brutal time and general disposition of the ancient world. Violence is probably the greatest sin of mankind and the greatest lesson to learn. If we all just got up and went to work everyday and lived our lives how great would the world be?
Hi Just Me! Your following comment sparked some thoughts, I hope you don’t mind – I feel like I will expound on more than contradict what you say. just me wrote:In my home I have talked about the Nephi/Laban story with my children and verbally told them that God would NEVER ask anyone to kill anyone else and that killing is WRONG all the time. I hope I can teach my children to have and use critical thinking.
I agree that as a general rule God is about the love – and love does not match with killing. I agree VERY much that the use of critical thinking should be employed over blind following.
My additional thoughts have to do with something I heard Bushman express: that LIFE is paradoxical. When we try to simplify anything down to absolutes, we will be missing something, somewhere. The more I learn about life, the more I realize there will always be an exception to the rule. While I agree that God would never ask for killing in the way that Mountain Meadows happened, or even the way we hear the Nephi/Laban story, I have to be open to the possibility that in some bizarre circumstance it may serve the greater good to end another life. Possibly, for example, during a violent attack – say a gunman on an elementary school playground.
My point is only that real truths are often found in paradox, and as a wise friend once said: “moral absolutism seems as folly as scriptural literalism”
Think about other paradoxical situations: Don’t lie, but don’t hurt another’s feelings — etc.
Thanks Just Me!
There is so much here that has been said. I think maybe something Ray said encapsulates the entire issue: Old-Timer wrote:I don’t think staying LDS is morally harmful, in and of itself. Judged against an ideal – well, sure it is. However, I also think that staying LDS can be morally enlarging and edifying and exalting.
In my considered words I’ve shared previously, “The LDS religion is far from perfect, but it is a giant step in the right direction for a lot of people.”
Here’s the rub. In the past, in a spirit of humility, I have considered that the LDS religion could perhaps be positive for myself and my house. As Ray says, it’s not so great if judged against an ideal, but it may be able to improve certain gene pools, including my own. More lately, however, as I look at the ideals being learned and lived in my home, and I lay them against the LDS religion, I see LDS involvement clearly pulling relatively downward and toward fundamentalism. Why would I be so foolish as to continue my family’s involvement under those conditions.
On the other hand, this may all just be about disappointment in myself. In that Sunday School class at the PERFECT moment, a gray haired angel in the back raised her hand and said, “I think somebody over there had a comment.” But I didn’t dare speak up. It was a gift from heaven, but I am paralyzed. I fear man more than God. The problem, after all, is in my own heart, perhaps, as are all the problems with this world.
Tom Haws wrote:OK, friends, I am at the end of my rope on this one, and I don’t know what to do. I can’t see my way around a persistent and perhaps even increasing deep conviction that the church is harmful to moral thinking. Right now what’s at the top of my mind is the church’s correlated apologetic fundamentalist presentation of morally repugnant stories.
Today’s Sunday School lesson was about one of the greatest prophets ever…Elijah. And today in Sunday School we heard how he mocked 400 local priests from another church (they were really wicked, the story went), then after Heaven sent fire to lick up a soaked sacrifice, he killed them all….That’s righteous? That’s a Sunday School story? I am dumbfounded…All this stuff matters, I think. It all sets an example and a tone for what it means to be holy and righteous…
That story is one of the least of all the problems I have with the Old Testament. What about the one where a bear tears apart a group of children just because they were making fun of Elisha’s bald head (2 Kings 2:23-24)? Of course the Institute manual explains that it wasn’t quite as bad as it sounds because “little children” was a mistranslation that should have been “youth” instead so I guess that means they deserved it.
In fact, I hardly even noticed the story you mentioned when I first read it because there were already so many others (a global flood, the Tower of Babel, talking donkeys, Moses ordering genocide, etc.) where I couldn’t hardly believe that some people still try to interpret them all literally as the “word of God” and insist this is exactly the way it all happened. Actually, I think most Church members don’t even pay that much attention to many of these stories or really try to make sense of them to the point that I would be overly concerned with any negative moral implications. I agree, I don’t like the Church’s fundamentalist-style approach to some of these stories but at the same time I’m not so sure that just scrapping the whole thing over this is really the best answer either.
Tom, being the change you desire absolutely isn’t easy – and it shouldn’t be, since it should involve finding the proper way to be the change. It’s not just finding a voice in class, for example, but finding the right way to express that voice. Sometimes it takes a bit of trial and error, and error can be painful. Grace applies to our imperfections in ALL things, including fear of not being understood.
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