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It is a lazy Labor Day so this epistle may be rather lengthy. I apologize beforehand. For all the areas of church theology/doctrines which I am teachable about, there are two where I demand my own interpretation. They are politics and sexual orientation (homosexuality). My personal history in these fields evolves around three generations of my own family. I have (or had) two gay brothers. My oldest son is gay and perhaps my best friend. We can speak of and share anything. I learn much from his intellect, his observations, even his pain.
I’ll start with my father’s generation. Three of his brothers never married. Were they gay? I was never told. It was a different time. My own dad didn’t marry till 43, and then to a 24 year old Native American girl. There are four sons derived from this relationship, two were gay, one is bi, one straight. My oldest brother was always “out.” Because he had no children, he became a caregiver to my folks when they grew old. He was a prince in service and his significant other often joined his effort. Bill died before my folks, at the age of fifty-one. It may have been AIDS. We never asked, though we noted he’d grown thin. To stand on my parents porch at dawn one morning and tell them their son was gone, a most difficult assignment. He had 25 years with his S.O. They took in strays; cats and dogs, they built a life together. Jim visits Bill’s grave weekly, though he’s been gone nearly twenty years now.
My next brother is still with us. He had eighteen years with a S.O., and though the relationship ended, I gave it an 8 on a scale of 10. They had great years together. Today I’ve become his caregiver. I pick him up and get him to appointment’s at the V.A. Hospital. His life now is books, reading and learning and sharing. We love each other. We are brothers forever.
The next generation is my son. Raised in the church, he knew hidden fear and open rejection. I know no one with a better awareness of Christ’s teachings. He was a missionary personified. He came home and attended a liberal Maryland college in Maryland. He became overweight and suicidal, until he broke the bonds and rejected the thing he loved most, the LDS church. Now he plays Rugby and have ‘fabulous’ friends. He works on environmental issues and is a activist for worthy causes. He’s become my caregiver in some early ways, watching over me, reminding me of my obligation to put myself first. I am so fortunate to have him in my life. I love him and will stand with him someday on the beautiful shore (or I will join him in Hades). As long as we are together, it doesn’t really matter.
I know my story is unique but yet, families in the church with gay sons and lesbian daughters, we are legend!
Dear George, Thank you so much for sharing your story with us. A couple of years ago, I was assigned to work on the “Testosterone and Estrogen” bench of our laboratory. It was just a small part of the Endocrinology Lab, but I did thousands of test.
One day, we all had to undergo training with the topic, “Gender Unknown”. This was a continuing education presentation on how to determine the true sex of children born with disorders of sexual development and differentiation as well as those with “Androgen Imprinting” errors. Androgen imprinting occurs in the developing fetus and “programs” the brain differently in male and female fetuses.
There are many things that have not been fully elucidated or explained and one of them is why certain homosexual males appear to have more of a female brain development when seen on brain scanning equipment. I have posted about the abnormalities in “Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome”, “5 Alpha Reductase Deficiency”, “Congenital Adrenal Hyperplasia”, “Klinefleter’s Syndrome”, and fetal exposure to synthetic estrogens, thyroid hormone and methamphetamine.
I arrived at the spiritual place in my life where I determined to just stop judging people and begin helping them – whatever their situation. The difference in NOT judging others was amazing. It allowed me to focus more on myself and my family, my own spiritual growth instead of obsessing over the “sins” of others. I wasn’t even sure if being born with a “sexual variance” was even a sin in the eyes of God. If having a genetic or developmental disorder is a sin, that would mean that thousands of little babies are born sinners!!!!
That is so incompatible with the BOM which teaches that little children are born without sin and are “alive in Christ”. The Grace of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ takes away any imperfection that a child may be born with.
My focus changed from condemning people to simply treating people the way I would like to be treated if I suffered from their same condition.
I take a blank sheet of white paper. I draw a line straight down the center of the paper. On the right side of the paper, I write the word, “ADAPTIVE”. On the left side of the paper, I write the word, “MALADAPTIVE”. The Maladaptive list includes, suicide, depression and social withdrawal, sexual promiscuity and breaking the law of chastity (unsafe sex), overeating etc. On the Adaptive side of the paper includes, learning how to interact with people in nurturing, non-sexual ways, improving relationships with parents, friends, God,
practicing active wellness, preventing sexually transmitted disease, personnel growth and development, prayer – my list goes on and on. The end of my list for “Adaptive” includes, love, home, marriage, children and grandchildren – the fullness of life, the fullness of love, the fullness of Christ.
Finally, I realized that my list for Adaptive and Maladaptive behaviors was EXACTLY the same for homosexual persons as it was for heterosexual persons. Amazing.
Your story is so interesting George. Lots of food for thought. MWallace, I always learn so much from your experiences and perspective. My Danish Dr. friend gave me this link:
http://www.straightguise.com/default.asp?id=1272 that explains why there are straight guys who have sex with men and are not gay (just confused about their orientation). A gay psycologist runs to website and it is very interesting insights here.My Danish doctor friend came to realize this happened to him. He had been a male prostitute in Copenhagen when he was a young man for about 10 years and most of his clients were married men. When my Danish friend read my book he came to realize his own SSA stemmed from his severe sexual abuse by his step dad and even his mom. He came to realize that his years as a male prostitute was a reparative drive that was unhealthy. All his life he had thought he was gay. He was totally shocked to discover he could have very strong sexual feelings for women in the past 5 years. So, apparently, it is different for different people. Bridget
Briget_night is right. There is definitely such a thing as “environmental imprinting”. One of my favorite stars is Dolly Pardon. As a little girl, Dolly was dirt poor and lived in a Smoky Mountain town where few of the women had money. These gals wore the best dresses they had, but most of their frocks were simple. Dolly wanted to perform on stage and get noticed. She took her inspiration from the only women in town who seemed to dress fancy – the town hooker. “It costs a lot to look this cheap”, jokes Dolly. This is an example of “environmental imprinting”. Dolly is an example of a women who grew up with love, warmth and music, but learned her fashion sense from the only woman in town who ever had a new dress.
Environmental imprinting is different from “Androgen Imprinting” which is the biological process of human sexual orientation. Environmental imprinting does involve looking at role models (such as our parents) and making choices – choosing who and what we will follow. Dolly grew up poor, but that was not her destiny. As a child, she saw poverty daily, but she had the free agency to change her own life. Environmental imprinting does not undermine free-agency.
I have finally had a chance to read the OP and I’m very sorry to hear of your incredible difficulties. I agree that the Church doesn’t knoow how to deal with homosexuality and quite frankly I don’t think the metaphors and teachings the Church uses to deal with the everyday internal struggles that we humans face, that are quite useful to many of us, are sufficient for wrestling with the difficulties you face on this issue. Personally I think that not only is there nothing wrong that you did to become gay but that there is also nothing inherently wrong with homosexuality, period. It does not make you bad to have that desire or even to express it-it is simply an unfortunate relic of past dogma regarding this subject which has created tension between you and your family which is tragic. I know that you are in a difficult situation though as you are attempting to navigate your relationships with family and your desires to live life in the way you want. But whatever course you take to navigate those waters I hope you will certainly recognize there is absolutely nothing wrong with you or the expression of your feelings(while obviously taking into account the normal considerations of any adult sexual relationship such as health and trust issues, etc) but that you are simply caught within a culture that is, at least in respect to this issue, outdated. I also hope you understand that your family is undoubtedly entrenched within the thought processes which will make it difficult if not impossible for them to fully understand your plight or your decisions and to forgive them for that. However I think in most circumstances they will be much more understanding and loving than you would anticipate. Whatever the case I wish you the best in seeking peace and finding a resolution to this very difficult dilemma.
I’ve lost my friendship with the guy I mentioned. It’s been really hard on me. It was his decision after he rekindled his scripture study, prayer, fasting, and drive to get married. He wants to stay friends, but can’t see how any girl he gets seriously involved with will tolerate his friendship with me. Had it not been for messing around, he said he would have loved to have stayed friends. He sent this to me in an email. We’ll be getting together to discuss it, since I’m a face to face kind of guy. I’ll let you know how it goes.
So it’s been 5 months since my friend and I parted paths and a year since I first started this thread. I have had virtually no contact with him since November. We got together after he emailed me. In his email, he had said his decision was based solely on what we did that was not right and that his future wife (even though no girl was in the picture at the time) would not tolerate his friendship with me. He said it wasn’t for anything personal and otherwise would have loved to continue in close friendship and that he loved and cared for me.
I got together with him and said my piece. I apologized for my part in it all, I called him out for the things that he used me for (not in a sexual sense), and let him know that the door of friendship would always be open to him. I also let him know how deeply I loved him and how I wouldn’t have done what I did if it weren’t for the bond and love that I had toward him.
With time, I’ve wondered how much he really loved me and connected with me. I’ve replayed everything in my mind many times. For the first few months after, I was diagnosed with a mild depression by my counselor. It was extremely difficult losing his companionship, much more than the lost sexual contact which hadn’t been present for the last several months of our friendship. It was extremely difficult disengaging from some of our mutual friends and navigating the waters with them, all of whom had no idea that either of us were SSA, involved with each other, or disaffected. For the most part I’ve moved on, but some days still are really hard. I think about him every day, sometimes I dream about him. I have no expectation that he will ever be my friend again, but I do hope for it. I am still friends with him on Facebook, but I had to hide him from my newsfeed and I have to be very careful not to check out his profile. I try to not pay attention to his activity on our mutual friends’ pages. He untagged himself from some of our pictures and things like that are always a battle for me. My counselors, the few friends that know what happened, and even my bishop think my friend is behaving from a position of shame, fear, and immaturity. I was amazed when my bishop had told me to keep being his friend in spite of the sexual contact we had.
On the spiritual side, I am actually doing really well. I feel like I am having an awakening of sorts and while I don’t believe in the church, I have generally positive feelings toward the church and God, in spite of my mistrust. For the time being, I am an agnostic, buffet social/cultural Mormon with streaks of Buddhism and Humanism weaved in.
I would love to meet other openly SSA/gay/bi/g0y active Mormon guys in AZ and may consider settling down with one if the right one comes along and I don’t marry a girl. Life without companionship is an unacceptable proposition to me. I have enough attraction to and compatibility with women to make it work as long as I know she is devoted and emotionally connected to me, but most girls in the church won’t give me a chance and most girls outside the church would advise me against “changing”. I’ve come out to a couple girlfriends. Each were very understanding and supportive. For closure I came out to my exgirlfriend (who is still a great friend) a couple weeks ago before she moved away so she could understand what was going on with me while we were dating. But while she didn’t know my situation at the time, she had strong impressions from the Spirit to end it with me, but stay friends. We stayed friends for a year and half after, even while she went on to date my best friend for much of that time. But she decided to move and was unwilling to reconsider dating me again because she was leaving and God already told her not to date me. Now she is moving in with my sister out of state. haha.
So that’s life. I welcome any feedback and thank everyone for that which has already been given.
Thanks for the update, ???… It sounds like you are in a good place, I sense self-acceptance and self-love and that is such an important part of emotional health. I think it’s interesting that you’re interested in dating Mormon guys, any reason for that in particular or are you just more comfortable with someone with a familiar background? My BIL’s brother is gay but I don’t think that he self-identifies as Mormon anymore. I know he doesn’t go to church and he’s out of the closet to everyone.
I live in AZ too and I have alot of gay friends/colleagues though none are Mormon. I’ve never explored it since I’m not gay, but I imagine there are online groups or support groups for gay LDS though if they’re trying to stay active in church they’re probably opposed to SS dating.
Anyways, I absolutely love and support the journey that you’re on. I would love to see openly gay couples at church. There’s no reason, other than cultural tradition, that the church is so unaccepting. If I had a son or daughter or a grandson or granddaughter that was raised in the church and was gay, it would be such a blessing for him/her to see that God loves and accepts them no matter what. Especially in those formative years when they see things in such a black/white way. I know that God and the church are two separate things but to a thirteen-year-old, it’s really tough to make that distinction.
Hi, I don’t mean to keep resurrecting an old thread but just wanted to get feedback on my bishop situation.
My bishop desperately wants to give me a temple recommend. I meet with him weekly and each week we go over one of the questions. He knows everything I have done and where I stand. For example on the sustaining the prophet question, I told him that whether or not we have a prophet is irrelevant to me now. He knows I haven’t paid tithing in years. He knows I sometimes drink. He knows about a quasi one night stand that took place a couple months ago.
In spite of all this, he told me he knows I am worthy to hold a temple recommend. I called his bluff and told him if I was so worthy to whip out his book and give me a recommend. He said it is just a matter of me giving the affirmative answers. So his view, I am worthy even when I say I have not tithed in years, but he won’t issue a temple recommend in that case.
I love the guy. But I do not understand his approach to this. Is he spiltting hairs as to what is worthiness, misrepresenting worthiness, or just being leninent?
Has anyone else encountered a bishop who says you are worthy to enter the temple when you clearly do not make the confessions of faith and/or live the minimum standards of what is typically defined as worthy?
Bishops have more latitude than most people realize – but few use it much, since it might open up a potential Pandora’s box. Otoh, I don’t know of any Bishop who wants to issue a recommend if they are positive the Stake President won’t sign it – and I understand that, as well. I think he might be telling you (intentionally or not), that there is a difference in his mind between temple worthiness as it relates to the condition of your heart and temple worthiness as it relates to the organizational standards. He also might be telling you that this isn’t his decision; it’s yours. Iow, there are certain things you need to accept if you want to attend the temple that aren’t related necessarily to spiritual worthiness.
Imo, the issue isn’t what he thinks of you; the issue might be simply if you are willing to accept what it takes to attend the temple. Will you pay tithing? Will you stop drinking? Will you avoid one-night stands? etc. Which means more to you personally – to continue to do those things or to attend the temple?
There are those here (like me) who are willing to accept the restrictions in order to attend the temple; there are others who are fully active in their local units but who don’t attend the temple at the moment. My advice is to stop putting your Bishop in the spot he’s in right now and decide whether you want a temple recommend at this moment or not. It really is your call to make, not his.
It seems like your bishop thinks that as far as the belief part of the temple recommend goes, you pass with him. It also seems like he wants you to make some changes in conduct to be temple worthy because he believes it will help you to be happy. I would try to refrain from reading any more into it. I guess knowing what your bishop believes about your potential temple recommend status forces you to decide if this is something that you want. But it is completely up to you. And if you want to understand more clearly what your bishop is saying to help you choose what you want then ask him. Good luck. Quote:Three of his brothers never married. Were they gay? I was never told. It was a different time.
To be fair, this doesn’t mean that they were gay at all. Once you go past a certain point in life, it’s harder to get married anyway. Some people just never find a decent life partner. Some like women, and are even womanizers but never marry (one of my parents’ friends fell into this category)
By LDS standards I’m old to be a bachelor. I certainly like women, but have never found a woman I liked enough to marry… and i don’t know how many women would put up with me.
Go to this link on the latest progress of Mormon and Gays meeting in California with support of Berkley Stake Pres. If this topic interests you, please consider listening to the five interviews currently up at Mormon Stories Podcast. They are between John Dehlin and our LDS poet, Carol Lynn Pearson. Talk about a worthwhile four and half hours of listening…… maybe crying a little bit as well. ???, I’m sorry to hear that you have gone through so much pain over this. It is not fun. What I want to say to you is that I believe your situation is not that different for many people, if not all humans, in this life. Yours is over same sex relationships. But others (including my own) are over different things. It’s confusion is what it is. I feel confused all the time as to the purpose of life, what is right and wrong. I think it is that confusion that drives these people we free-thinkers call “delusional” to cling to a religion and embrace it as all or nothing. Which is why we shouldn’t criticize them, because they are just as lost in life as we are and looking for answers to life’s tough questions. Every day of my life I must wake up and move forward not knowing the exact purpose of life or the answer to life’s deep questions. Life is a mystery. Even the prophets of old spoke of God as being mysterious. He’s a mystery because we are ignorant and don’t understand him. I believe you are just experiencing what we all experience as confusion over life. Unfortunately, there is no human on this planet that can tell you why you feel the sexual attraction to men. Not the prophet, not your bishop, not your parents. No one can tell you how you should behave, its up to you. But you are not alone in this struggle. All humans who think and rationalize and observe are just as confused as you are. I am baffled by the gospel and its doctrines. And I know that I will always be. So here are some keys that I’ve found out to dealing with this confusion.
1. Quit obsessing over it. Imagine obsessing over why you can’t over come the power of gravity. Question, yes, but obsession is unhealthy. How you should behave sexually is a question you will never have fully answered in this life. So quit worrying so much.
2. Find what brings you joy in life (that which is healthy) and stick with it. I love music. I love sports. I love passing those skills on to my kids. These are healthy distractions from the pain and toil of life.
3. Adhere to those things in the gospel that you KNOW are true. Whether or not there is a God, I know I need to take care of my loved ones and serve them. If the Mormon church is all wrong or all right that fact is set in stone and I will not deviate from it. Helping poor people and less fortunate IS right. Do it. Just because we are all lost doesn’t mean we don’t know anything.
I know you want some one to be right when they say flat out if you should act out and be gay or not. It will NEVER happen. I’m sorry to say that to you, but this is the reality of life. And not just for you. I have been told the family is the central unit in the eternities. I battle every day to keep my marriage together because sometimes to me it seems not worth the pain. This is my problem to which I have no answer, and I never will. Should I keep my marriage together or not? There are all kinds of people around me who think they know, and think they have answers but they do not. Only I can make that decision for myself. Best of luck to you. I hope you read this and take to heart some of the things I have learned to cope with my confusion over life.
God Bless.
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