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This just came out today. What do you think? I think it’s “yellow journalism.” I don’t doubt people are leaving the church, that’s obvious here. The question is how pervasive it is. If history is any indicator, the church is not going to release those numbers. Unnamed sources – even those of the high ranking variety – don’t cut it for me. Seriously, anyone could make that up. Hi Bridget, thanks for sharing.
I was struggling to find any factual information in there.
Quote:Well placed inside church sources, who once again spoke to me on condition of anonymity, report that there is even a possible defection in the 2nd highest governing body known as the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles.
First I’ve heard and sounds pretty made-up to me.
Quote:“The LDS Church spends millions of dollars in covering up its history from the general membership of the church, and especially from potential converts,”
I don’t think that’s true. While their mainstream manuals certainly don’t discuss the “real” history in all the details… they don’t spend millions of dollars covering history up. If anything they are spending a lot on uncovering it. The josephsmithpapersproject.org website and all the people working on it are probably costing a big whack.
Quote:A magical object used by Satanist to discover buried treasure and to cast spells.
That’s not right. None of the accusations were ever made based on him being a satanist. People didn’t have a problem with him scrying for treasure. They had a problem with him not being very good at it!
There are no facts to support the headline. I think the whole article is bogus and doubt any of the “anonymous” quotes are valid.
The Trib is usually the bearer of bad news, they seem to have a good handle on who and what. Yes the LDS boat is rocking, and it may yet for a while, there may even be some bumps up top, it won’t crash the religion. We have already passed Hans Mattson, the Trib referenced a member of the General YM leadership as having disaffected. The church is still pushing forward. Where it ends up remains to be seen. I imagine that a lot of discussion about where to go is being had in the halls of COB. Quote:My sources were afraid to speak to me for the most part and, when they did I couldn’t get them to stop. I found most of the individuals that would talk to me had once possessed a passion for the Mormon Church, its life-style and doctrine, yet became so troubled by its history and policies that they left its ranks.
Quote:Well placed inside church sources, who once again spoke to me on condition of anonymity…
Sounds like the source is… NOM?
I don’t doubt that the church is losing members but sometimes I get the impression that people making these sorts of claims are doing so more out of wishful thinking than any actual evidence.
I heard Elder Marlin Jensen say something similar, and I see he’s also quoted in the article. I know the rate of church growth is slowing – you can see that from the statistics released in general conference each year. Audio of Elder Jensen Q & A at USU
http://www.fileswap.com/dl/5iKOuShH9D/ElderJensenQandAInterlacedEdited.mp3 Reuters: Special report – Mormonism besieged by the modern age
http://uk.reuters.com/article/2012/01/30/uk-mormonchurch-idUKTRE80T1CP20120130 Why are some people leaving the church? I assume it’s a combination of increasing wickedness in the world, plus people having a problem with stuff they see on the internet.
With increasing wickedness in the world, you have to make a more conscious decision to be a Mormon. Also, it seems some members are listening to worldly philosophies more than they are to the prophet. Neal Maxwell said that as the church grows the opposing wickedness in the world will also increase.
With the internet, I guess people find out stuff they’ve never heard before (even assuming it’s true, some isn’t) and decided they’ve been lied to. This is harder for me to understand. Just because you haven’t heard something before doesn’t mean the church lied to you. It just means your knowledge and idea of the church and gospel has been limited, maybe even naive.
So the Sunday School manual never told you Joseph Smith had 50 wives. That’s not the purpose of Sunday School. People have always been free to learn about things like this on their own.
In recent years the church has apparently been opening its archives more, which is great. And internet is getting info out there that in the past wasn’t as easy to find.
Truth is truth – I’m not afraid of it. So far I’ve not learned anything that would disprove that Joseph Smith was a prophet who re-established God’s church in the latter days. It still comes down to faith. I expect the church will weather this storm and come out stronger.
shoshin wrote:…
Why? I assume it’s a combination of increasing wickedness in the world, plus people having a problem with stuff they on the internet.
With increasing wickedness in the world, you have to make a more conscious decision to be a Mormon. Also, it seems some members are listening to worldly philosophies more than they are to the prophet. Neal Maxwell said that as the church grows the opposing wickedness in the world will also increase.
With the internet, I guess people find out stuff they’ve never heard before (even assuming it’s true, some isn’t) and decided they’ve been lied to. This is harder for me to understand. Just because you haven’t heard something before doesn’t mean the church lied to you. It just means your knowledge and idea of the church and gospel has been limited, maybe even naive.
So the Sunday School manual never told you Joseph Smith had 50 wives. That’s not the purpose of Sunday School. People have always been free to learn about things like this on their own. ….
Wrong.
Try again.
Even your edited second version (double post) isn’t much better.
Pretty damn condescending remark for the stayLDS website, IMO.
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cwald, Apologies for the double post – I thought I was editing my first one. A bad habit.
I certainly didn’t intend to be condescending. The OP asked for opinions. This is what I believe. When I joined this group it was my understanding that believing members were also welcome here. Maybe off off base on that.
So sorry if I offended you. Of course feel free to ignore me if you like.
Ok. I will go back and delete your first quote, replace it with the second, and see if it does not come off as condescending to those who have gone through a faith crisis.
PS… blaming the members for being lazy and naive for not knowing church history and facts after 50 years of correlation, will never fly uncontested on this website as long as I’m a member.
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You did not offend me. I’m simply stating that your comment came from ignorance of the situation in most cases of the people who post on this site. shoshin wrote:When I joined this group it was my understanding that believing members were also welcome here…
Yes.
I was one who made such a comment.
Glad you are here. Now I’m challenging your perception of why most people are on this site.
May I suggest you read Urchtdorf’s GC talk from October where he explains why people are leaving the church, and come back to the table.
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cwald wrote:May I suggest you read Urchtdorf’s GC talk from October where he explains why people are leaving the church, and come back to the table.
OK, thanks, I was getting a hostile vibe, so sorry if I misinterpreted.I’ve listened to Elder Uchtdorf’s talk at least twice, but unfortunately I often don’t remember stuff very well from conference.
This one, right?
https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2013/10/come-join-with-us?lang=eng Looking at it again, I take this as he is talking about general reasons people usually leave. He does mention questions about church history, which is part of what I meant my internet stuff.
The OP was talking about a recent trend, as I saw it.
Why are people leaving now, more than earlier?A more wicked world and the internet are reasons I’ve heard others give, including the links I gave. Those are my impressions, but I don’t know if they are the main reasons. I feel like I’m probably still not understanding what you are saying, so feel free to spell it out to me.
You will not believe me. Perhaps you will listen to a mormon prophet. Here is what Uchtdorf said. ” To Those Who Leave
The search for truth has led millions of people to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. However, there are some who leave the Church they once loved.
One might ask, “If the gospel is so wonderful, why would anyone leave?”
Sometimes we assume it is because they have been offended or lazy or sinful. Actually, it is not that simple. In fact, there is not just one reason that applies to the variety of situations.
Some of our dear members struggle for years with the question whether they should separate themselves from the Church….
Unanswered Questions
Some struggle with unanswered questions about things that have been done or said in the past. We openly acknowledge that in nearly 200 years of Church history—along with an uninterrupted line of inspired, honorable, and divine events—there have been some things said and done that could cause people to question….
And, to be perfectly frank, there have been times when members or leaders in the Church have simply made mistakes. There may have been things said or done that were not in harmony with our values, principles, or doctrine.” -Uchtdorf
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shoshin, I believe there is no God. Now, you and I can get along just fine as long as we don’t make it our business either to justify our own beliefs or to disparage the beliefs of others. This site is about coping, not convincing.
FWIW, I defend people who are believers all the time. You believe differently than I do. Not only is that your right, but it is also understandable and even admirable. Perhaps you could look to defend people like me. I didn’t stop believing because of something I read on the internet and I didn’t decide I’d been lied to. I’m grateful for my upbringing in the Church, for my mission, for my temple marriage. But ultimately, I came to believe that the Church was a fabrication. In light of that, I couldn’t be a believer any more. I haven’t left the Church physically, but I have left it mentally. I didn’t choose for this to happen.
On Own Now wrote:shoshin,
I believe there is no God. Now, you and I can get along just fine as long as we don’t make it our business either to justify our own beliefs or to disparage the beliefs of others. This site is about coping, not convincing.
FWIW, I defend people who are believers all the time. You believe differently than I do. Not only is that your right, but it is also understandable and even admirable. Perhaps you could look to defend people like me. I didn’t stop believing because of something I read on the internet and I didn’t decide I’d been lied to. I’m grateful for my upbringing in the Church, for my mission, for my temple marriage. But ultimately, I came to believe that the Church was a fabrication. In light of that, I couldn’t be a believer any more. I haven’t left the Church physically, but I have left it mentally. I didn’t choose for this to happen.
http://forum.staylds.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=5057 Well said.
I did not choose for this to happen to me either. I blame/give the gods all the credit.
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Thanks for the replies. I was taking the question more abstractly – “why are people leaving the church now more than in the past?” Elder Jensen said it’s the greatest time of apostasy since Kirtland.
I guess you all are taking the question more personally, which is understandable. I apologize for that. “Know your audience” is the first rule of writing which I guess I failed.
I’m wondering how I can contribute to this site so maybe I will just fade out. Best wishes to you all in that case.
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