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shosin, You are welcome here. Don’t preach.
– On Own Now
Nibbler, I really like what you said. You just described my husband and I. Personally, I have a hard time anymore understanding how someone who has all the ugly facts, can stay in the church. I do know that God works through all churches (even the Mormon church) with good people everywhere. I still like alot of lds teachings, and hope they turn out to be true, but my husband and I’s personal and spiritual experiences have shown us the lds church is not the only true church. nibbler wrote:[Some people come here looking for help after struggling for years to fight off the belief that the faith that they once had was, as you say, a lie. That’s an important aspect, that people have truly gone to battle against the notion that aspects of their faith were not based on truth. They fought hard for it because they didn’t want to lose that part of their system of beliefs. They’ve spent countless hours telling themselves that the church is not a big lie, that it might not be what they thought it was but still somehow, somewhere deep down it
muststill be true. They wanted so desperately for the church to be what it once was in their lives but the relentless nagging doubts wore them down until they broke, like wave after wave after wave breaking upon a shore slowly eroding it away until it is gone. They did not ask for this. To them it was an external force that, like the waves, could not be held back. That said it can be a bit difficult when a person in that dire situation comes looking for support and finds another voice that tells them the same things that they’ve already told themselves too many times to count. That your feelings that the church is a lie are incorrect, that you just thought that the church was something that it wasn’t but it’s still true; you just can’t see it yet. I think a lot of people that have had a faith crisis have already beat themselves up telling themselves that for years and years and years. Those words cease to be of any comfort.
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Excellent post nibbler. Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk
It’s important to note that it is not just the LDS church. And combined together it rarely has to do with history or even belief. Not that those aren’t concerns but when you compile other religions and cultures of orthodoxy there are large patterns between them. One big answer that is really talked about is the human race growing up, slowly, to escape the need of certainty. People have historically wanted freedom throughout time but usually turn back to groups of people to find a pattern a belief if stability to fit in, we fear freedom when we experience it, like a child leaving his parents in his/her own that feels powerless and insecure without establishes rules, beliefs and norms if the group they are familiar with. Many around the works are feeling more comfortable to leave on their own, explore their own thoughts and beliefs as the need for security becomes less as they feel less powerless. There might and probably will be in the future a lack of security and powerlessness will become stronger that people will again flock to the security of conformity and long establish rules. But right now, the general trend is not in that direction for establish orthodox cultures or religions. Like wise there is an increase in thought against conformity in all forms weather religious, nationalistic, cultural, racial etc. Increasingly they feel empty confirming and suppressing themselves in their respective environments.
This doesn’t apply to everyone, just many. In addition many have found non-conforming religions with which to be themselves and worship in comfort and not distress of suppression of self for conformity.
There is a trade off to each and more people are deciding it is worth it to go out into the unknown then face conformity, group hatred or intolerance and authoritarian personalities
It’s not unique to LDS or even religion. As many I know go through divorces or community hardships with gossip and conformity in their community they are tired of all the sacrifices only to be left with nothing in the end. They are searching for their own identity now, who they are without them after being pushes away(not only in religion) because they didn’t fit in or conform to a group standard(many of which where born into their culture, nation, religion).
Friends that are tired of Israeli nationalism, American interest, criticism of dating someone of a different race, what they are allowed to eat and drink, where they have to spend their time, having no say in their community, what dog they can or can’t own, if and how they can paint their houses. They are just tired of others trying to make or condition them into conformity. They don’t want part of it anymore.
There are many reasons, but this is a huge one that spans all religions, cultures, nations, families, groups.
If they can’t participate as how they are they simply want no part in their resistive groups slowly over time shifting to that concession that they are lowing to grant to themselves. What others did seemingly, naturally since birth.
It’s just my 2 cents serving in and talking to a variety of people across cultures and religions. Who come to some of the places I volunteer to seek refuge from third respective group. They are seeking to take control back for themselves and are tired of being treated the way that they have been. Tired of conformity is the keyword I hear among many across all the groups.
Forgotten Charity, your post made a lot of sense to me and resonates with me. I have felt that exact pull in my personal life. I have had that exact discussion with my fiancé about fearing freedom. My therapist likes to tell me: “The only thing we are truly doomed to is freedom.” Some people who have had near-death experiences report that God values our freedom above all else. Freedom is scary. Security feels safe. Growing up is scary. I think one of my biggest struggles with how much I believe in the church has to do with outward signs: the tremendous growth of the church in the beginning. The faith of thousands who crossed oceans to gather. The temples that we build all over the world and put so much time into. The unique doctrines that came to Joseph Smith constantly. The witnesses of some people saying they saw Christ. The financial size of the church. I have spent so much time viewing all of these things as God’s hand pushing this church along, as we have been taught. It is the stone cut out of the mountain without hands. I guess I just view the church in such a unique position that implies there is more direct divine direction in it.
But then I realize that occasionally history has organizations that pop up that grow and make a difference in almost miraculous ways. I suppose we could say that of some business in history. Some empires, some religions, have had the power to do miraculous things…at least miraculous in the sense that they accomplished great feats. I am not suggesting that these great feats are always good. Certain conquerors did some amazing things, even if also evil.
Or perhaps the church isn’t as amazing as it portrays itself. Perhaps I have just been taught to view everything about it as divine, when in reality, it is not necessarily accomplishing anything terribly unique. I don’t know. I wish I still didn’t sometimes get hit with this fear that I am an apostate…that I will wake up one day in God’s presence and be shown that I was deceived by the wickedness of the world and I lose some of my eternal happiness. I certainly do things that would be considered partaking of the ‘world’ in the eyes of the church.
Yet I feel happier than ever. In the end, I have to trust the personal fruits of my choices and the direction that personal inspiration takes me. It truly is scary. This freedom is scary. But in the end, I would rather be accountable to God for how I followed my heart and conscience, and not how well I followed leaders and the strong opinions of others and the things taught to me from my infancy.
cwald, quit being abrasive and mean to the new guy!Now that that chastisement is out of the way
😆 Pretty much our only rules of etiquette are to be respectful of others and not preach at them. I don’t think you crossed that line, but, as others have said, please understand that almost everyone here is looking for their own way to have internal peace – NOT “the one true answer”. We all do that as individuals and in differing ways.
Personal opinions are FINE, but some are going to get push back – especially if they seem to imply (or state clearly) that they are the only/best way for everyone.
As to staying or not, only you can make that decision – but I think you are trying to be respectful, so I would ask you to stay and continue to figure us out better. We want more participants here who are fully active, dedicated, non-struggling members, since more of a balance is never a bad thing. They simply have to understand and respect our mission and who we are well enough to fit in and help.
Nothing terribly profound to say other than I have really enjoyed this entire discussion, some of the best posts…back-and-forth dialog I’ve read in many month’s. Based on original topic posting I did not expect this… that’s primarily why I try to read them all. Just like most things in this life, nuggets of truth and goodness come in the most unexpected places. I usually come to this site daily to gain empathy and give back when I can. Threads like this one fill my well with great peace for months to come…. until the next time both Ray and Cwald equally touch my soul. I think for many, at least as far as LDS and this site goes, there are many things in common. How much varies, the concern I see when I am volunteering(to religiously related by nature) is a trend to(try) and push through the fear to stand on ones own. It seems even after teenage years we are still being Co-dependent on family, culture, religion, nationalism, etc. It’s just to unhealthy, interdependence is less secure, unknown. To many variables. Despite that slot of defining events are happening that many are deciding to push through unknown territory and face insecurity over conformity. Personal choices.
I personally love the church(or at least the people in it). How can you love an inanimate object. It’s way to objectify the church because it is an object. The people inside are not however. However, if a personages to many sacrifices then I can’t see how resentment will not set in(it does in every place else I volunteer). That’s the paradox, we can make small changes here and there, but in the end if we are changing to much because the person is different, then yes conformity breeds, insecurity, resentment, hatred and fear. How can it not since it’s impossibly to live happily changing to much of oneself.
That’s where the real challenge lies, with each of us and those facing it tiger culture, religion, nation or group.
How much is to much seems to vary from person to person. But it’s a personal call. And each will have to find what they are comfortable with and the church will have to find what it is. Even if the church gets back all it’s members and somehow they confirmed back to whatever standard it is at the time. It will still be the same thing I think as I see in other groups. Too much conformity leading back to desperation, depression, resentment, fear, insecurity, hopelessness.
Wash, rinse, repeat. It’s not a solution. A person has to be comfortable with who he/she is. It’s not a group decision, it’s individual decision on what defines a person and who they are. The group can only decide to accept it reject the person. Not define them. By contrast as LDS we need to learn to be comfortable with ourselves in and out of the church. No person should “need” the church. That’s co-pendency and it’s unhealthy. No matter what object or person(s). Of we are not enough without it her/him, church. we will never be enough with it.
The real question is can we make it desirable to be a member and be active? Can we be tolerate of others without trying to define them? As a church can we be comfortable with ourselves(even with whatever weird beliefs).? There are many weird beliefs around the world and some people are comfortable with it. Who stays and who joins will largely be deciding on these things if my experience in volunteering in different groups and history is anything to go by. It seems to be for those groups, I’m not so sure it’s different for us. As a kid did you play with people who didn’t want to share pitching the ball? What happened when people had to have it all, most their way to the play group? What happened when they co-operated?
What happened if certain people were years or pushed out because of their differences? What happened when they tried to be inclusive and understanding to each other’s wants/needs?
The answers for us as LDS and others are not so different from my point if view. It doesn’t guarantee anything(guarantees are just illusions anyway). But it significantly increased the likelihood of a successful and happy time together. Sometimes i question if we didn’t learn things from our childhood that should have been learned. Where we over structured, protected, not paying attention to figure how to work things out on our own co-operating. Unfortunately doctrines and beliefs can’t play into everyone’s life. One size fits all works for some, but the vast majority are outright or eventually unhappy. As the kids learning to play all together realize as they try to co-operate. So they learn the need for it. Doesn’t Mayer what excuse, reason or rationale is for not co-operating it doesn’t work unless it happens. That why bringing doctrines in is kind of weird to me. Not that it isn’t important. But it doesn’t and will never negate the need to have everyone’s needs met and co-operate. Nothing can over come that basic universal need and law no matter the reason or justification. So we must learn to except or at least acknowledge it as a group, together if we want to not only exist but thrive I think. As well as the long term evidence seems to show in our tribe and others.
Cwald– I will take your compliment any day. I look forward to the day when the chasm in your family life can be breached. Mackay– The BH Roberts quote is golden. That could be our motto here. Thanks also for the Bob Reese piece, he is one of the giants I look toward in the miles ahead, him, Armand Mauss, Eugene England. They are a huge piece of inspiration. I too have loved this thread and discussion. I feel like I have come to know more about the deeper hearts of my ward members here. I am going to be smiling for a while after this thread.
:clap: This was a great thread and immensely helpful to me. I’ve been going through one of those “living a double life and no one understands” periods lately, so it was nice to come here and remember how much you all understand. I know this is way off the OP, but I want to say that it made me reflect on the fact that a faith crisis, or transition, is a hugely personal experience. Trying to get someone who hasn’t experienced it to understand is nearly impossible, if not completely impossible. It’s like trying to describe what parenthood or childbirth are like to someone who hasn’t experienced it. You just can’t because it’s so different for everyone and so outside previous experience. Another example is a profoundly “spiritual” experience. There just aren’t words. Before my FC, I was so arrogant in my testimony. I looked at people who’d lost their faith and thought they were weak and that that couldn’t ever happen to me. That’s probably why it did. Until just very recently, I’ve been angry that it happened. I wanted to go back to the way I was before my FC, but now I’m glad it happened. I think one of the reasons I’m feeling the “double life syndrome” so keenly is that for the first time, maybe in my whole life, I’m starting to be who I really am and it feels great. I’m getting closer to where it’s going to be necessary to “come out”, and even though it won’t be easy, I’m looking forward to it too. I know I’ll have friends and family member who won’t understand no matter what I say, but I have to be true to who I am.
PS – sorry for totally hijacking the thread.
:shifty: Thanks Writer – you helped me on my thread about what I should tell bishoprics. You’re right, it is difficult if not impossible to explain, and perhaps they need to understand that. writer63 wrote:Trying to get someone who hasn’t experienced it to understand is nearly impossible, if not completely impossible.
I totally agree. One thing that has helped me over the last 2-3 years is to come to a point where I believe that the only person who needs to “understand” my faith crisis/transition/journey is me.I apologize for coming so late to the party, and I hope I’m not re-opening a can of worms that doesn’t need to be open. But I wanted to address something Shoshin said and make sure that something is understood. shoshin wrote:Why are some people leaving the church? I assume it’s a combination of increasing wickedness in the world, plus people having a problem with stuff they see on the internet.
With increasing wickedness in the world, you have to make a more conscious decision to be a Mormon. Also, it seems some members are listening to worldly philosophies more than they are to the prophet. Neal Maxwell said that as the church grows the opposing wickedness in the world will also increase.
With the internet, I guess people find out stuff they’ve never heard before (even assuming it’s true, some isn’t) and decided they’ve been lied to. This is harder for me to understand. Just because you haven’t heard something before doesn’t mean the church lied to you. It just means your knowledge and idea of the church and gospel has been limited, maybe even naive.
Shoshin, I want you to understand that when you talk about people who have a problem with something they see on the internet, you’re directly addressing a good portion of the people in this forum. Your comments above sound very dismissive and imply that those who “have a problem with with stuff they see on the internet” or “listen to worldly philosophies more than the prophet” are wicked or naive. It’s pretty insulting. The problems that people have with stuff they see online or with stuff prophets have said are real problems and they mean an awful lot to the people having the problem. It’s important in a forum like this one to be very sensitive to the fact that for every faithful statement you can make, there can easily be someone here who has a serious, heart-wrenching problem with that statement due to direct, personal experiences and disappointments. If you speak of such problems dismissively, you’ll be alienating people. It can help to couch things in terms of your personal experience (“I find that I have to make a conscious decision to be Mormon” vs “you have to make a conscious decision…”) and to avoid using generalities or value judgments (like calling things “wicked”). I think you’ve probably figured all this out by now, so I might be beating a dead horse here. I just wanted to make this clear if it wasn’t already. As others have said, I think you probably do have something to add to this forum, and I hope you stick around. I look forward to hearing more of your (empathetic) perspective.
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