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On Own Now wrote:
Ultimately, who cares whether the BofM is historical or allegorical or just plain made up? If it inspires you to live a godly life, then great… if not, then find something that does. There was no Noah or Job. So what? They are great, symbolic, stories that have a much deeper and better meaning than what is on the surface.
Because when you are taught to take something as literal it has more sway over your behavior than if not. Others will hold you more accountable if they believe your behavior does not conform to the teachings contained in these literal stories. IMHO it is disingenuous to say the BofM may not be literal but it is still inspiring. You are making that claim on the backs of thousands of people who sacrificed everything and even their lives at times on the basis it was actual history. Shakespeare to my knowledge has not inspired armed conflict or mind control.As long as the majority of the organization believe it is literal that is the way it will be perceived. There will be no room for a nuanced approach, at least in public
Cadence wrote:IMHO it is disingenuous to say the BofM may not be literal but it is still inspiring.
Ouch.FWIW, I left black-and-white thinking behind when I had my faith crisis. For example, I don’t believe much in the NT story of Jesus to be literal. I still find it inspirational. I suppose that is disingenuous too… I’ll have to live with myself, but I think I can manage.
Quote:IMHO it is disingenuous to say the BofM may not be literal but it is still inspiring.
No, it’s not – not even close – and that sentiment has no place on this site, no matter how sincere it is. We love you, Cadence, but that absolutely crosses our line here, since it calls nearly all of us disingenuous.
Quote:IMHO it is disingenuous to say the BofM may not be literal but it is still inspiring.
Adjective
Not candid or sincere, typically by pretending that one knows less about something than one really does.
Synonyms
insincere – false – devious – hollow-hearted
I wonder if perhaps the word disingenuous might be a bad fit for what you want to say. I personally am not sold on the literalness of the book (or the story of its delivery to JS) but I can still find value and inspiration in the book. I am having a hard time understanding how that might make me insincere, false, devious, or hollow-hearted.
Cadence wrote:There will be no room for a nuanced approach, at least in public
Given this statement for context – I wonder if Cadence might mean that we cannot be
candidwith our unorthodox opinions about the BOM in a church setting. That I would totally agree with. If it makes me disingenuous to not say everything that I think when I think it – then so be it. mackay11 wrote:Ilovechrist77 wrote:That website it fantastic. Thanks for the link.
Really? What’s to like? I guess you’re catching me on a good day but I found it a little too mission orientated. Mission to pull down faith that is.
I thought the same thing initially Mackay11- but then I realized the “Ilovechrist77” was likely referring to the Joseph Smith Papers site linked to by Martha. I did some perusing and I must agree – great site!
Yes, I think you misinterpreted IloveChrist guys!!! Years ago, I had a book of the D&C by themes. It was a great idea to see stuff juxtaposed that was normally scattered about the place.
Cadence, I disagree with you about the Mormon martyrs. Many of us share a love for the BoM with them. We know the early LDS did not always behave, but they also suffered atrocities which were in the truest sense unamerican and against freedom of religion.
Roy/SamBee – thanks, my mistake. I’ve added a footnote on my previous post to correct it (but left the first part so yours aren’t out of context). Pobody’s Nerfect…
SamBee wrote:… We know the early LDS did not always behave, but they also suffered atrocities which were in the truest sense unamerican and against freedom of religion.
Yes. And it continues to happen today…and the LDS Church is not guiltless in committing the atrocities.
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Sure, but plenty of things happened to the LDS that are inexcusable – murder of Mormon children, the extermination order and even the death of JS, which should have never happened that. Whatever JS did or didn’t do, he did not get a fair trial. SamBee wrote:Sure, but plenty of things happened to the LDS that are inexcusable – murder of Mormon children, the extermination order and even the death of JS, which should have never happened that. Whatever JS did or didn’t do, he did not get a fair trial.
What comes around goes around… it seems.Many LDS did the same thing to the Ute Native American Indians, under the order of Brigham Young – “Follow the Prophet!”
:eh: 😡 On Own Now wrote:Ultimately, who cares whether the BofM is historical or allegorical or just plain made up? If it inspires you to live a godly life, then great… if not, then find something that does. There was no Noah or Job. So what? They are great, symbolic, stories that have a much deeper and better meaning than what is on the surface.
I agree.Children can only think in concrete, literal, terms. That’s why they understand Santa more than the spirit of Christmas.
There comes a time to put off childish thinking. EVERYTHING we think and communicate is symbolic – including these letters I’m typing.
Who am I to say how the earliest members of the church interpreted symbols??
No doubt, some took it literally, as children do.
But there’s reason to believe that some realized the spirit of it much more than the letter of it…
“It is not always the words we use in prayer that count so much as the spirit in which they are said.”-Elder G. Smith “The prayer of the heart is greater than the prayer of the lips.”– J.E. Talmage “It is the business of man to find the spiritual meaning of earthly things.”-John A. Widstoe “Any open-minded search for truth requires courage, constancy, and humility.”-H.B. Brown Usually, when someone is “converted” to the gospel, it is because of the spirit they feel, not because it all makes sense literally or logically.
Quote:What comes around goes around… it seems.
Many LDS did the same thing to the Ute Native American Indians, under the order of Brigham Young – “Follow the Prophet!”
The link doesn’t support that claim, Featherina. It doesn’t even come close to claiming “many LDS” were murdering Native Americans.
Not wishing to excuse abuse and atrocities such as the Black Hawk war but 19th century Mormons had a better record vis a vis relations and treatment of Native Americans than most other Euro-Americans. In fact, I remember reading an account somewhere that many NAs trusted Mormons more than other whites, because they were less likely to cheat them.
For decades, Native Americans as Lamanites held a central place in LDS theology and mythology and not entirely a negative one.
I think the LDS record on this score was often bad, but still better than others. I think NA history is a big black mark on US politics, but that’s a whole other story. (The other one being negro slavery etc)
Of course then there’s the Indian Placement program and the tragic story of that Navajo GA, but that’s later.
Certain members of this forum including George, Jwald and Cwald have direct knowledge of these matters, so can probably give a better account than me. (Although maybe more on the contemporary side)
Ray, If you read the entire article, you’ll realize differently.
If you’re looking for a word-for-word quote, it isn’t there – becauses LDS is not used, but rather, “Mormon settlers,” “Mormon culture” or “Brigham Young’s militia.”
“When the Utes failed to assimilate into Mormon culture, the answer was to exterminate them.”Sam,
How can a track record be worse than an “extermination order” & cases like marching men, women & children of the Ute tribe out onto frozen Utah lake to be killed?
I realize it’s the past, but prejudice continues & it’s based on warped, one-sided explanations of history.
Many people who don’t live in Utah are unable to understand the prejudice that many members STILL express toward Native Americans or anybody who doesn’t look white.
And even if you have heard stories about how good the early church pioneers were to the Native Ute Indians, remember: HIS-STORY is written by the victors.
No doubt, there were some who were kind, but many were not – not kind at all.
Reality speaks for itself… where are all of the native Ute Indians? Yes, some of it was disease brought by settlers, but there were overwhelming cases of (Mormon) settlers taking over Ute resources &/or directly obeying the “extermination order” given by BY.
“Brigham Young acknowledged an alarming rate of decrease of the Indian population, and a 1909 government census bore testament to Brigham’s observances revealing just 2300 remained alive. The Native population had decreased by 90%. Considering that their population exceeded 40,000 (and some scholars estimate 70,000) when the Mormons arrived in 1847, the numbers are staggering!”“LDS Church President Brigham Young’s victory was perhaps a hollow one for, in order to fulfill his dream, he had to destroy a civilization. He complained it was “cheaper to feed them than to fight them,” as he was spending millions in church funds equipping his private army to war against them. Brigham paid his Generals as much as $300 a month while some 3000 soldiers were being paid some $16.00 a month each. Then in 1866 the United States government reimbursed Brigham some 1.5 million dollars for military expenses.”Quote:“When the Utes failed to assimilate into Mormon culture, the answer was to exterminate them.”
Hogwash, and that’s a more mild response than I could have typed.
I read the entire thing. The site quotes from different sources who make different claims, and you quoted the one that is the harshest toward the Church.
Let’s drop it, since it is patentaly obvious to me that the early saints didn’t try to exterminate the Native American population. You seem to disagee. Fine. No war here about it.
Old-Timer wrote:Hogwash
“Hogwash”???Nice “moderating”, Ray.
🙄 If anybody is interested in realizing truth, they will.
If not, they won’t.
Simple.
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