Mormon Expression: Fowler Stages of Faith Podcast

[Anonymous]

The guys over at Mormon Expression did a podcast about Fowler Stages of Faith. One of the panel members is some guy named Brian. I think he mentioned that he is also involved in this site in some way It might be an interesting discussion to check out.

http://mormonexpression.com/?p=315

[Anonymous]

Thanks for the link! I enjoyed that.

There was one point toward the end that I would have worded a little differently. Someone said stage 5 members jump back into the fishbowl (meaning participate with the church) …”even though they don’t believe” or some words to that effect. Maybe it was even though they know its “not true.” I understand the terminology – in relation to their previous stage 3 views. Personally I prefer “in the same way” to be added to any comments about belief. Stage 5 can still see goodness and truth in religion.

Yes, belief changes from stage 3 to 5. Stage 3 holds the symbols to be reality and may say they are his deeper meaning. Stage 5 looks at the symbols as symbols – but can say they represent aspects of his deeper meaning.

That’s kind of a sticky point with me right now (I don’t like labels of “doesn’t believe”) but overall I liked the podcast. Whoever that Brian guy is – he sounds pretty smart!

Any idea of when the follow-up episode on stage 5 will be?

Oh, and when the comment was made that the only way a “stage 5″er can continue with the church is to “stay silent” I couldn’t help but think: “of course!” My perception is that stage 5 members will understand the stage 3 views, and know that they cannot impose all of their “translations” onto the broader membership. Some of the words a stage 5 member may want to speak will not compute in a stage 3 paradigm, so the 5er will know (or should know) to keep it to him/herself. I think the realization also comes that it really is a personal journey, and the desire to share or receive validation becomes less pronounced as time goes on, at least for “sensitive” side roads. I do think a 5er can become comfortable speaking about his/her symbols in terms that the broader membership will accept.

[Anonymous]

Orson wrote:

There was one point toward the end that I would have worded a little differently. Someone said stage 5 members jump back into the fishbowl (meaning participate with the church) …”even though they don’t believe” or some words to that effect. Maybe it was even though they know its “not true.”

It was Brian and his big fat mouth who blurted it out before his brain could control his tongue, hehe. Brian posted a response at the M.E. Blog for the Podcast Episode clarifying that particular misstatement. Katie L. made that same observation in a comment over there.

Quote:

Any idea of when the follow-up episode on stage 5 will be?

I don’t think it is scheduled yet, but it would be cool to hear the panel go into more details about Stage 4 and Stage 5 (what most people who bother to listen to that sort of thing are interested in). It felt like the hour just wasn’t long enough when I was listening to the podcast.

[Anonymous]

Valoel, thanks for the tip to listen to this. Brian sure did a nice job explaining each stage! It must be all that practice he gets discussing them on StayLDS . Brian sounded just like a psychologist explaining the stages :ugeek: .

I have to say that from my Stage 4 perspective, I liked the response that in Stage 5, the person already knows its all false, but they decide to jump back into the pond. I know that betrays what Stage 5 is all about, but my Stage 4 thinking can wrap its head around that.

I also liked that it was specifically noted that Fowler describes structure of faith and not faith content. The stages of faith do not specifically or uniquely apply to LDS faith.

I very much look forward to a follow-up podcast with more depth to Stage 4 and 5 in the church.

[Anonymous]

MisterCurie wrote:

I have to say that from my Stage 4 perspective, I liked the response that in Stage 5, the person already knows its all false, but they decide to jump back into the pond. I know that betrays what Stage 5 is all about, but my Stage 4 thinking can wrap its head around that.

I can understand that, and respect the stage 4 perspective. I think one of the keys to stage 4 is that recognition that everything is not nice and neat like it was always assumed to be. That step is necessary (clearing the foundation) before a new structure can be built. What I am beginning to understand about stage 5 is that it moves away from polarization and embraces paradox. Statements like “all false” or “all true” seem so terribly limiting. Reality in all its grandeur is far more complex, and more interesting (at least to a stage 5 point of view).

[Anonymous]

My understanding of stage 4 is that there has to be some break from the group thinking that is done in stage 3 as the basis for our perception of reality and the faith we have in our existence, and when that stage 3 framework just doesn’t hold up to personal experience, then one is thrust into stage 4 to break away from that group that provided safety in the past, which is painful and scary.

Stage 4 is about personal strength, accepting one’s own doubts and fears, and strengths and weaknesses, and not feeling guilty about allowing one’s self to think independently. So I agree with Orson that it is not so nice and neat because “the group” doesn’t agree with the personal journey one takes, or the independent thinking that threatens the safety of the fold.

I like how it is presented on this website:

Quote:

Stage 4’s ascendant strength has to do with its capacity for critical reflection on identity (self) and outlook (ideology). Its dangers inhere in its strengths: an excessive confidence in the conscious mind and in critical thought and a kind of second narcissism in which the now clearly bounded, reflective self overassimilates “reality” and the perspectives of others into its own world view.

http://faculty.plts.edu/gpence/html/fowler.htm” class=”bbcode_url”>http://faculty.plts.edu/gpence/html/fowler.htm

Stage 4 is very narcissistic – when I break from the group, I begin thinking I discovered something the others don’t understand…and truth is, many others don’t.

Stage 5, however, is about renewal, or conjunctive faith. You go back to the symbols and faith of Stage 3, but now are free to apply the meaning and the value in a way that is beneficial to you, without the narcissism that others either must see it that way (stage 3) or others are blinded to not see it like I do (stage 4)…and accept that everyone can see it how they see fit and of more value is how it all benefits us collectively, regardless of individual perspectives.

As the website states, it is usually approached at mid-life when one is finding meaning to life’s experiences, and accepting paradoxes that undoubtedly exist:

Quote:

The new strength of this stage comes in the rise of the ironic imagination-a capacity to see and be in one’s or one’s group’s most powerful meanings, while simultaneously recognizing that they are relative, partial and inevitably distorting apprehensions of transcendent reality. Its danger lies in the direction of a paralyzing passivity or inaction, giving rise to complacency or cynical withdrawal, due to its paradoxical understanding of truth.

Just some of my thoughts as I try to grasp these concepts.

[Anonymous]

Yeah, wow. Really nicely said. I like this:

Heber13 wrote:

Stage 5, however, is about renewal, or conjunctive faith. You go back to the symbols and faith of Stage 3, but now are free to apply the meaning and the value in a way that is beneficial to you, without the narcissism that others either must see it that way (stage 3) or others are blinded to not see it like I do (stage 4)…and accept that everyone can see it how they see fit and of more value is how it all benefits us collectively, regardless of individual perspectives.

Scott Peck put it nicely in an interview once. He basically said stage 3 was a kind of acceptance or conformity with the status quo and stage 4 a period of doubt. What I liked most when he said that we can’t really move out of stage 4 until we begin to “doubt our doubts.”

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